Close to half of American adults favor TikTok ban, Reuters/Ipsos poll shows : technology

[–] FlickOfTheBean 38 points 1 year ago (15 children)

Hmm can someone tell me if I'm just in a "republicans are hysteric about it so it must not be that bad" mindset?

It's obviously spyware to some degree, but this really seems more like a case of red-scare. I can't put my finger on exactly why, though. Makes me think I might just be reacting to their reaction.

I guess, what exactly are they afraid that China is going to do with this data? It's a missing puzzle piece that I've heard nothing coherent on besides "China gonna spy on muh datas". Like, sure, maybe if you're a government official, and I don't think bans of tiktok on government devices are stupid, but I think the nationwide ban idea is pretty dumb and baseless. So I guess my actual question is, what are they afraid of happening, exactly?

[+] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

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[–] FlickOfTheBean 20 points 1 year ago (4 children)

...then they aught to ban every app with user generated content. YouTube might be the biggest propaganda vector we have right now, and the powers that be would not be able to tell which nation is pumping out anti-us videos due to it being so easy to lie about stuff like that.

That's quite a bad response if that's really the reason. If they're worried about propaganda, the best defense against it is education on what is propaganda, and how to spot it, not banning a single vector of it when so many others exist already.

This only supports my theory that this is red-scare nonsense (though please let me know if I misunderstood, I really do want to understand)

[–] expected_crayon 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think the propaganda fear isn’t necessarily due to user content, but rather the algorithm being set to intentionally push certain content/narratives that China wants pushed. Politicians don’t target YouTube because it’s not China setting the algorithm, it’s an American corporation and politicians like that. Personally I don’t have any real opinions on TikTok, although I wish all social media killed their algorithms that seem intentionally designed to push radical content (because clicks).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Algorithms push content to produce engagement and retention. If someone is getting radicalized by algorithms it’s because they are engaged by the radicalism.

My TikTok fyp (algorithmic content) is full of artists - mostly vocals and strings, but some brass too, along with Creepy Dave animal videos and a few British (and British style humor)comedy sketches. It’s quite enjoyable. I think the only political content I can remember is a couple of Jeff Jackson videos (NC US House if Rep), and that’s because I looked him up after my wife forwarded me one of his online bits.

People who get radicalized are ripe for picking, not converted. And if we are concerned about SM, we need to outlaw most talking head TV and talk radio along with it.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Agree. I want to ban TikTok('s algorithms) too, but on grounds of algorithm addiction and national security issues it causes. That also means Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts.

[–] galloog1 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's not about the propaganda they can push but the data they can harvest with full access to everything your phone can provide. It's the difference between simple algorithms and full on individuals machine learning models targeting you. Combine that with an actual malicious intent and you get some pretty interesting and terrifying possibilities inside information warfare and kinetic.

[–] FlickOfTheBean 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What are these interesting and terrifying possibilities inside information warfare and kinetic warfare?

That's specifically what I'm after. It sounds like boogyman fear right now, but it sounds like you have something more concrete. What is it that you have in mind, exactly?

[–] galloog1 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They could use unmitigated microphone access to develop an exact profile on what would get you to spy for them and betray the country and to what extent. Location based models from minute gps data which can predict exactly where you are to maximize attacks on infrastructure. 3d models of the inside of every federal building and us military bases from direct camera access.

Combining models can create increasing impacts with automation and cyber capabilities.

An individual example would be automatic ai generation of images of your family being threatened sent to you while you are at work. All they are asking you to do is go and flush the toilet.

Everyone does that at the same time and overwhelms the sewage system creating a manufactured infrastructure crisis in Arlington VA around the Pentagon. This multiplied by a hundred issues all at once as they invade Taiwan.

This is the type of attack that's only possible with direct access to literally all the data that the little sensor node that is your phone can provide over time. It doesn't include the types of profiling that they could do with your political inclinations to magnify any discontent with the world around you at the most inconvenient time for the government. It also doesn't include the possibility that you might be a decision maker for government contracts someday or a politician influencing policy towards China.

Ever done anything wrong and still had your phone powered on that could possibly be used against you? Are you sure? What if they have enough image data to make a video that looks just like you doing something against your loved ones that they also have profiles on?

[–] FlickOfTheBean 3 points 1 year ago

Beautiful, this is what I was looking for.

I think, still, that the best defense against this type of thing is education. Education on what nefarious actors can do with data types xy and z, and education on how to not get owned by a foreign actor.

I still think an app ban is principally un-American, but this is the imagination part that I couldn't come up with that at least gives what I'm still calling republican hysteria a veneer of legitimacy.

Thank you for that!

[–] NOT_RICK 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I look at it as completely missing the root problem, which is companies have way too much power to harvest and hoard data. If there were strong data ownership and protection laws in the US TikTok would either follow those rules or be fined/banned for actual cause. Washington is just mad a company not in US jurisdiction is the one doing the harvesting for once.

[–] FlickOfTheBean 5 points 1 year ago

I don't disagree with that which is why I'm currently in the "this is red-scare" camp. If Washington (more specifically, the NSA and friends) hadn't been buying our data to peruse via the lax privacy laws we currently have, maybe they'd have a leg to stand on with any of this...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I agree, and I always want to know what TikTok is taking that facebook, twitter, etc aren't also taking

[–] CanofBeanz 7 points 1 year ago

The exact same shit, it's just what continent it's stored on.

[–] yossarian 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Facebook is paying for it

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I might be a little paranoid here so feel free to lmk, but a few uses for the data gathered by a foreign government/keeping people addicted:

The most obvious: Propaganda to push people to distrust their government

The less reasonable but still possible: Time wasting, people spend less time trying new things due to the lack of instant gratification, decreasing productivity/capability of the users. We've seen China begin to address this domestically with new laws limiting usage, what the US would consider overreach (unless it effects the bottom line perhaps?)

The downright unreasonable: Profile building using accounts as a digital fingerprint to determine military capability, it's amazing what people will advertise about themselves online, TikTok occasionally tells people what illness (mental or physical) before even they are formally diagnosed. Imagine leveraging that information in a 'unethical' way, the possibilities are endless.

[–] FlickOfTheBean 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think the paranoia is what I was looking for, so thank you for delivering!

For the most obvious: idk, I think people should generally have a healthy distrust of those in government positions. Maybe ideally not, but in reality, it's necessary to not be taken advantage of by any manner of power hungry people. If tiktok half truths inspire someone to start actually looking at what xyz government has done, then that's a win in my book. If they just eat the half truths as is straight from tiktok, that's when there's a problem, but that's what my "why don't they educate people on how to spot propaganda" is to address.

Less reasonable: I think people should be allowed to do what they want to do long as it doesn't infringe on the health and safety of another. I guess you can split hairs about it decreasing health due to people working out less or something like that, but I don't think that's a good enough reason for government action.

Unreasonable: this actually seems the most reasonable to me, believe it or not. Military people posting the wrong thing at the wrong time from even a personal account can and has had bad effects on security before. That's why I would support a ban of any spyware-like app on government devices and on military bases (this was originally only support for a ban on gov devices, but I think if we're thinking about security, banning it in places where leaks may cost lives makes sense)

As for the endless possibilities of leveraging mental illness knowledge of a user, I'm afraid I can't imagine what one could do. The only time I can imagine that would really matter is if China takes over the US and goes full genocide on the population. I think the world would go down in nuclear flames before that would happen though...

[–] galloog1 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If the app was literally called "CCP Government Monitor and Sensor Node" would you say the same thing about people being free to use it how they please? At the very least you would recommend any phone with it installed be banned from any government location or strategic location and people who use it scrutinized. As it currently stands, people don't believe that's what it is because they like it.

If you accept what the government is trying to communicate about it, the lines around individual freedom and the freedom to endanger others becomes pretty clear. You have the freedoms to work with explosives but you have no right to take a bomb on a military base. It is the same with data models. Having worked in machine learning and defense, I'm inclined to believe it. I acknowledge that I'm biased here but take my opinion for what it's worth.

[–] FlickOfTheBean 3 points 1 year ago

I would say malicious malware shouldn't be sold on the app store and that anyone who hosts it should suffer whatever fallout it comes with (not the end users, the apk providers). However, due to the US being The Way That It Is™, we don't actually have any recourse like that for providers of malware. As for spyware.... I guess it probably should be handled like malware too. Eh you got me lol

I've said a couple different places in this thread I support a ban of tiktok on government phones and in at least one other place I support a ban of it on military bases, but my main issue was that I couldn't figure out how it could be used for nefarious purposes outside of government phones or areas.

As for "you have the right to work with the data models, but not remove the data from US soil", that's a new one, I'll have to think about that some more. Good point though, I think.

[–] Kinglink 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ask yourself if the American government had the ability to talk directly to the Russian populace with no interference from their government, what might they say/do/cause to happen.

That's what Tiktok is, and that's what a lot of the fear is about. It's know that all Chinese companies have heavy connections to the government, so if they wanted to do something they could.

Not even saying Tiktok is that bad, mostly just saying Americans, especially the government is a bunch of fucking hypocrites about this shit.

Honestly, keep it to "If you don't like it don't use it" and leave it at that. The idea of the government picking what social network people are allowed on seems foolish, and I imagine many people will side load the app (At least on Android) if it's officially banned.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I can't believe so many people are cool with the federal government censuring specific platforms. It's one thing if we wanted to ban an action through law (e.g. data harvesting or shipping it overseas) but it's another to silence a specific piece of software.

Imagine if Congress passed a bill saying Steve can't recommend movies to his friends anymore.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Being worried about CCP controlled apps is a sensible concern. Banning a single app (because Mark Zuckerberg is upset that it’s stealing his customers) is not a helpful solution.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I'm not saying that's not concerning (it's why I won't use it). I think what they can do with widespread analytics and pseudonymous data collection is... potentially impactful in ways we can't foresee.

But the Bill of Rights does not only apply to US citizens. And targeted bans are just a tool of government censorship that I'd rather not see wielded by politicians. I think the only reason it's targeted is because they either don't have evidence of the negative behavior or they're unwilling to ban the it because it would impact domestic platforms.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Cool, can we ban all the American apps that do all the same spying too? Because otherwise this is just whining that China is stealing our shtick.

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[–] Guy_Fieris_Hair 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If the bill was purely a tictok ban that would be questionable enough. But the bill is SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. Also, every app in America does the same shit. Just because they are capitalist America and not communist China doesn't make it better. Unless of course, you are a politician that benefits monetarily if the American company prevails.

[–] shashi154263 24 points 1 year ago

Believe me, banning TikTok is not the solution.

TikTok is banned here since long time, but people are doing same shit, just on Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts.

[–] Stinkywinks 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

20% owned by China, 60% owned by global investors and 20% by private. Headquarters in Singapore and LA. I think tiktok is dumb as shit and never use it but there's a Chinese company called tencent that owns 97% of riot games. So let's ban league of legends cause dota 2 is better anyways.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ban them both, make HoTS great again.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

again? 🤨

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[+] 30mag 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My cynicism says TikTok just won't hand the data to our government / cannot be trusted to be 100% bitchmade for our government, when compared to Facebook and Google.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Then where's the call to ban apple products? They famously defied the FBI's call for a backdoor during a terrorist investigation after all. Apple's actions have proven themselves to be more resistant to regulatory actions than frickin tiktok which actually proposed letting an American company host and oversee tiktok's infrastructure and data collection for the USA as a solution to such concerns.

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[–] Kinglink 16 points 1 year ago

And almost half of Americans favor banning the free speech of the opposing view points (Which ever party they aren't). So this is not a shock.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (5 children)

How about we pass a goddamn federal-level privacy law in this country?

Oh... I see...

You say it's too hard to reconcile privacy laws between 50 states? Hmm, yes. Sounds impossible for a global superpower. Let's just get back to banning things. Cool!

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

In other news, close to 100% of American adults are over the age of the target user group for TikTok.

Obviously, favoring a ban is a more political stance than just not using it yourself, but it's still easy to call for bans, if you wouldn't be affected.

[–] surewhynotlem 14 points 1 year ago

I'm 43 and regularly use TikTok. I've learned about soap making, trans rights, d&d, and a million other things. It's a great platform.

If you're on TikTok and just seeing teenage girls dancing, it's because you want to see that. Their algorithm is no joke.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Because the situation is so much deeper than just "banning TikTok" but rather

US government monopoly on data hoovering
Using tiktok as bait while rolling back even more privacy and safety protections
Inconsistent dogma against chinese businesses

[–] kite 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know what in the world my officemate would do with herself if she couldn't watch TikTok all day. Besides her actual fucking work for a change, that is.

I am so goddamn sick of hearing the same "hehe hehe" and the same fake-sounding scream-laugh that those videos all use for backgrounds/overlays that I am ready to shove an ice pick in my ears. Ban this garbage, please!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Though I agree that it should be banned. It will probably live on as youtube shorts or instagram reels or whatever the fuck it's called.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah the only proper solution is using fucking headphones around people. Like, some people really have no manners. If you're gonna listen to that shit on your phone speakers might as well get a proper bluetooth speaker and entertain the entire city with that brainrot.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Close to half isn't a majority.

[–] RoyalEngineering 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Here we go again.

These articles are like catnip.

People get worked up about something that isn’t going to happen.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Close to half of American adults eat propaganda for breakfast.

[–] scarabic 8 points 1 year ago

I’ll bet close to half of the people in favor of a ban don’t even really know what it is.

[–] mysoulishome 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I have a few feelings about it. First, I’m an average middle-aged middle-class straight white cisgendered male and the TikTok algorithm feeds me tons of stuff that is very pro feminism, pro trans rights, anti racist, pro labor. In a very touching and uplifting way a lot of times, actually. I’m a boring person but VERY passionate about these socially liberal issues and it gives me what I want and need to feel like a force of good, keep up with social issues, stay involved in some way feel passionate. My TikTok feed is woke as shit and good for me. I simply don’t see this on Facebook, YouTube and all the rest. I don’t see it. Of course everyone’s algorithm is different…

So maybe TikTok uses my attention for evil…data harvesting, influencing, hacking…I don’t know. I don’t trust china any more or less than most people. But how much do we trust meta, Google, Apple, Microsoft etc? I don’t particularly.

I may just be naive…but I do see a lot of good things that TikTok does, as dumb as it sounds.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

My largest issue with this whole article is the source of data. It is completely based on a survey taken on their own site. This means that they're just feeding the readers their own preferences back to them.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

WASHINGTON, Aug 16 (Reuters) - Close to half of American adults support a ban on the Chinese-owned social media app TikTok, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos survey that also asked questions about national security concerns and China.

The survey also revealed deep worries among Americans about China's global influence at a time when U.S.-China relations have fallen to their lowest point in decades.

FBI Director Christopher Wray said in March that China's government could use TikTok to control software on millions of devices and drive narratives to divide Americans, adding that the app "screams" of national security concerns.

Other top U.S. intelligence officials, including CIA Director William Burns, also have said TikTok poses a threat.

Former President Donald Trump in 2020 sought to bar new downloads of TikTok but a series of court decisions blocked the ban from taking effect.

Florida governor and presidential candidate Ron DeSantis has said he favors some form of national ban on the app.

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