this post was submitted on 16 Feb 2025
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submitted 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 
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[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

This is wrong, or perhaps I misundertand.

Entropy is a different concept from economic viability.

The rule of non-decreasing entropy applies to closed systems.

A carbon capture system running on solar energy on Earth (note: wind energy is converted solar energy) is not a closed system from the Earth perspective - its energy arrives from outside. It can decrease entropy on Earth. Whether it's economically viable - totally different issue.

...and I don't think the Sun gets any worse from us capturing some rays.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

Also, I don't think entropy has anything to do with carbon in the atmosphere. I thought it had to do with the size of the energy packets.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Yeah, it's different. I think the machine on the left is an infinite energy machine. Those will never work.

The machine on the right is a carbon capture machine which does work. But not well enough. Are fast enough to solve any of the problems that we have.

I'm fine with playing around with a carbon capture machine and seeing if we can improve it, but I would never want to rely solely on it.

I want to try a thousand solutions to the global warming problem. Including societal and government changes. Cuz you know otherwise we all die.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 days ago

I mean, we already have carbon sequestration machines that are even self replicating, and require minimal, if any maitenance....

Trees and algae.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Most pollution comes from shipping, agriculture, and other large industries. Poor countries/people cannot contribute because they are barely getting by as is. Even if the entire middle class in wealthy countries magically switched to electric/public/bicycling, started recycling, stopped watering grass, etc. it would make no noticeable difference.

The idea that social changes at individual level can help with pollution comes directly from propaganda pushed by cunts who are actually killing our planet for profit. Fuck them. Don't spread their lies.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

I don't. When I say social change I'm more talking about like social thinking that individuals are the problem. Sorry if that was not clear.

[–] [email protected] 71 points 2 days ago (12 children)

I've heard there's a practical green solution to carbon capture. The units are practically maintenance free and power themselves with solar energy. This allows to deploy them on many small patches of land. The captured carbon is stored in solid organic compounds that may be used as building materials. It may sound to sci-fi to be true, but it's actually just trees.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

Babe wake up, new copypasta just dropped !

[–] borokov 8 points 2 days ago (6 children)

Agree, carbon capture process is quite efficient now. I'm working on (pretty big) company doing Carbon Capture and Sequestration. The idea is to use empty oil&gaz reservoir to inject back carbon where it comes from. So there are several advantage:

  • The land is already messed up by former drilling platerform. No need to shave another forest to create a facility
  • No waste to handle, as the captured carbon is injected in the underground. We also study the possibility to inject other kind of waste, like domestic ones.
  • Simplified process as we can keep Co2 in gaz state to inject back in former natural gaz reservoir. Not even needed to extract carbon to solodify it.
  • Yes, trees are much more efficient and eco-friendly, but sometime we cannot just plant billions of trees. Whereas a CCS facility is relatively small compared to a whole forest.
[–] Valmond 9 points 2 days ago (7 children)

That seems like a disaster waiting to (re) happen, what's your thoughts on that?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Water is the biggest limiting factor, trees need more water.

[–] Bosht 7 points 2 days ago (6 children)

Density of CO2 produced vs what trees capture is massively unequal. Yes trees can, but not on any tangible scale that would ever keep up with what we are doing to the planet.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago

Yeah, agreed. Carbon capture won't save us, not trees nor otherwise. We have to slow down what we are doing to the planet.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

the picture on the right isn't demonstrating an engine. They simply use renewable energy to power the fans that suck in the air.

Doesn't change the fact that industrial carbon capture is a scam, and most of that captured CO2 is later released back into the environment to help extract oil from old wells.

https://www.aogr.com/magazine/sneak-peek-preview/carbon-capture-boosting-oil-recovery

[–] cynar 109 points 3 days ago (16 children)

Just checked the numbers, for those interested.

A gas power plant produces around. 200-300kWh per tonne of CO2.

Capture costs 300-900kWh per tonne captured.

So this is basically non viable using fossil fuel as the power. If you aren't, then storage of that power is likely a lot better.

It's also worth noting that it is still CO2 gas. Long term containment of a gas is far harder than a liquid or solid.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 days ago

It's also way easier to just stop digging up coal instead of inefficiently trying to get the exhaust from burning it partially back underground.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 3 days ago (14 children)

Who says you power that thing with fossil fuels? The real way to do that is via giant nuclear reactors or reactor complexes.

Fission power can be made cheaper per MW by just making the reactors bigger. Economies of scale, the square cube law and all that. The problem with doing this in the commercial power sector is that line losses kill you on distribution. There just aren't enough customers within a reasonable distance to make monster 10 GW or 100 GW reactors viable, regardless of how cheap they might make energy.

But DACC is one of the few applications this might not be a problem for. Just build your monster reactors right next door to your monster DACC plants.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

But then the power generated by those reactors is better used to power things that burn fossil fuel in a less efficient way or to simply replace the fossil fuel powered electricity generators...

Quebec transports its electricity over more than a thousand kilometers, surely distance from nuclear reactors isn't an issue if you build the infrastructure around it.

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[–] untorquer 23 points 2 days ago

The problem isn't a missing technology. it's our political and economic system.

I'm all for advancing tech but nothing is going to work until we fix our behavior. We use fossil fuels because they're profitable and allow or growth-at-all-cost economy. There's nothing for which they're the only option. Only a few things for which they're the best option; the power grid and transit aren't on that list.

[–] Diplomjodler3 50 points 3 days ago (4 children)

There are plenty of arguments to be made against direct air capture, but entropy isn't one of them. Nobody ever claimed this is some kind of perpetuum mobile.

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[–] [email protected] 54 points 3 days ago (6 children)

That small red bulb counteracts the entropy argument because you bring energy (and quite a lot of I recall) into the system.

Would be a sad day if we no longer could reduce entropy locally under the invest of energy.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Yes but no. The two actual uses of carbon capture is to remove the co2 from the air before it would happen naturally and the other is making fuel sustainable for retro or novelty vehicles. You dont have to stop selling gas cars if all the fuel they use is made with carbon capture. This makes the fuel more expensive but more sustainable. Once you have driven a 911 or skyline you will understand why someone would want to drive a gas car ;) Also, technically you are going from a higher energy fuel to lower energy so as long as you can do something with the co2 it abides by thermodynamics but the problems arise when you consider real world losses.

TLDR: carbon capture is a technology we should use after we stopped polluting to fix the earth.

[–] TankovayaDiviziya 17 points 2 days ago

TLDR: carbon capture is a technology we should use after we stopped polluting to fix the earth.

Yeah, it would just give people a blank check to use more fossil fuels. It is kinda like a diabetic person who acquired the disease later in life, and still not adjusting their lifestyle because drugs mitigate the effects anyhow. And the person will keep eating unhealthy food or not exercising.

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[–] solidheron 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Carbon capture is problematic. If I remember the area required to reduce C02 would be the size of Georgia and the air intake would be pulling in hurricane force winds. The numbers could be off but it would be a massive project that would require to be built by probably CO2 dumping infrastructure like factories.

Personally I'd say it would be better to colonize the Pacific Ocean so algae goes in deep ocean to be a carbon sink

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago

I've heard that's why the carbon capture is best done directly out of the machinery that creates the carbon dioxide.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 3 days ago (9 children)

Even if we went to zero emissions soon, we'd still want to decrease CO2 over time to reverse the effects of climate change. Capturing co2 is always going to be much more energy intensive than not emitting it in the first place, but sometimes you don't have another choice.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

The point is to use a low carbon power source to power it.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 3 days ago (6 children)

Yes that’s the point but why take the extra steps. Use the low carbon energy directly and stop using the high carbon sources.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 3 days ago (14 children)

The argument is that there exist some use cases where we do not have a viable low carbon energy source yet (things like heavy farming equipment or aircraft), and one can effectively counteract the emissions of these things until we do develop one. Or alternatively, by the time that we eliminate all the high carbon energy, the heating effect already present may be well beyond what we desire the climate to be like, and returning it to a prior state would require not just not emitting carbon, but removing some of what is already there.

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