this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2025
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[–] [email protected] 2 points 19 hours ago (5 children)

Similarly:

Is every good or service-providing entity privately owned? No? Then it's not capitalism.

Is the fire department part of the government (i.e. worker-owned), or is it a private entity? Do you have pinkertons or police? Are there soldiers, or are the armed forces entirely mercenaries? Are roads privately owned? When people get old and need some kind of regular monthly payment, does that payment come exclusively from private insurance policies and/or investments, or are the payments provided by fellow workers in the form of a government benefit?

Every modern economy is a mixed system involving some capitalist elements and some socialist elements.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 17 hours ago

The meme said, "the means of production." It did not say, "every, single means of production."

The OP could have meant anything from workers electing their CEOs in 51% of the steel mills, smelteries, oil rigs, cinemas, restaurants, etc. all the way up to 100% like you decided to assume.

But honestly, it makes very little sense to read 100% into this, especially with your wording of "good or service-providing entity".

A hell of a lot of "good or service-providing entities" are sole proprietorships, which are in a blurry gray area between private ownership and cooperative ownership. On the one hand, many capitalists started out as sole proprietors. On the other hand, by owning one's own means of production, a sole proprietor is both worker and owner, fitting perfectly in the definition of socialism. In fact, I would argue that the sole proprietor doesn't really become a socialist or a capitalist until another worker joins the business and it becomes a cooperative or a private company. Until then, the distinction is meaningless.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 19 hours ago

It is private in case you didnt know (police) It is just not on paper

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 20 hours ago (4 children)
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[–] OccamsRazer 3 points 1 day ago (4 children)

What does it even mean to own the means of production? How are decisions made? Big decisions can go to a vote, but what about small ones? I don't see how any organization can function without some kind of hierarchy. But the way you describe socialism implies that hierarchy can't coexist with socialism.

[–] WarlordSdocy 13 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

The socialist democratically owned company would still elect a CEO or something like it to make those kinds of decisions, and if they don't make good decisions they can be recalled by the employees to be replaced with someone else. The way I look at it it would be like how companies are currently but with all employees owning shares of the company rather then outside investors or the owner of the company. Atleast that's how I interpret it but there's probably a million different ways you could set it up while still having it be much more democratic then the modern structure.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 20 hours ago (1 children)
[–] PugJesus 4 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

"Capitalism is when there's management"?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 19 hours ago (4 children)

Many of the contradictions and crises of Capitalism are still present even under worker coop models in a market economy. Surplus value is still extracted, that money must be reinvested in the business to remain competitive. Meaning the Tendency of The Rate of Profit to Fall Remains, meaning capitalist crises remain. Imperialist incentives remain, and a worker coop nation-state would be equally imperialist as one with private corporations.

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[–] FlyingSquid 63 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The workers do not need to control the means of production when Pooh Bear Xi knows what's best for them before they do.

[–] [email protected] 63 points 2 days ago

Socialism is when capitalism

[–] Pilferjinx 31 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ah, you mean the elite, wealthy, oligarch class, Xi Jinping.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 2 days ago

Whoa buddy you a fed? Got any sources? My xi would never.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The DPRK is, I'd argue, more or less an absolute monarchy that just uses different words to describe itself than traditional for that kind of system.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The People's™ Absolute monarchy

Seriously it's insane how people can unironically lie to themselves. Thy literally said "socialism is not for the workers" lmfaoo

[–] grue 20 points 2 days ago (2 children)

If socialism were bad, law firms wouldn't be structured as partnerships.

[–] Takumidesh 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Law firms are so so so not socialist.

Partnerships only involve a few select attorneys at a firm, associate attorneys, paralegals, legal assistants, and every other role is not part of the partnership, and has no stake other than their vested interest in getting their paycheck (the same as any employee).

"Big Law" firms have thousands of employees excluded from any partnerships including billable (associates, paralegals) and non billable (legal assistants, HR, IT) staff, the partnership is more of a private ownership club where people are accepted mostly on vibes and sometimes, rarely, on merit.

The partnership structure is pretty antithetical to socialism, since it's structured in a way to exclude people deemed not worthy of receiving profits (But still somehow needed to make the profits??).

TL;DR: a small group of owner operators within a larger company is decidedly capitalist.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 days ago

karl marx only invented socialism for rich people, read theory shitlib

[–] sumguyonline -5 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

This is an extremely important point you just made! Pure socialism is impossible for humanity due to the individuals that are so easily corruptible. We need a system similar to socialism, capitalism, AND communism, that takes the best of all of them, abandones the worst, and compensates properly for human nature. Human nature is why everything fails, not the theoretical systems themselves. Theoretically they work.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I would actually argue that money -- and not human nature -- is the point of failure. To be more specific, money's capacity for growth.

The second you have the growth associated with a store of value (the ability to spend $100 and get back $110), you have the capacity for different piles of value to grow at different rates (depending on things like luck, ruthlessness, and cleverness) without being limited by a single human's ability to labor.

And when you have different piles of money growing at different rates with no upper limit, you have some growing so fast that they become cancerous, sucking the resources out of the entire system.

It's both better and worse having this problem than having one of human nature. Worse because growth is an even more universal part of nature than greed. (So we can't get rid of it.) Better because it's something we are intimately familiar with trying to contain. We have surgeries for rapid cellular growths. We have antibiotics for rapid bacterial growths. We have entire forestry organizations that release hunting licenses dedicated to containing rapid deer population growth.

Growth is an incredibly simple, two-dimensional graph, and it's easy to tell when we're controlling a growth vs succumbing to it.

[–] PugJesus 1 points 16 hours ago (3 children)

The second you have the growth associated with a store of value (the ability to spend $100 and get back $110), you have the capacity for different piles of value to grow at different rates (depending on things like luck, ruthlessness, and cleverness) without being limited by a single human’s ability to labor.

That's all material value, though?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

i mean, lenin era USSR might be socialist probably closer to communism though, but it was most definitely NOT socialist under stalin or communist.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 20 hours ago

the biggest difference was the war

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[–] SmoothOperator -2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Owning the means of production is a means, not an end in itself. I'd argue the social democratic welfare state comes impressively close to achieving the ends.

[–] PugJesus 3 points 22 hours ago (1 children)
[–] SmoothOperator 1 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Which is the better embodiment of socialism:

  • Means of production are collectively owned, but the the moneyed elite is somehow still accumulating power and wealth while the working class suffers
  • Means of production are not collectively owned, but the moneyed elite is somehow gone, and wealth and power are in the hands of the workers, who ensure that the creation of wealth benefits all

Not saying a welfare state is #2, but I'm interested to hear if #1 is a better socialist state.

[–] PugJesus 2 points 18 hours ago

I would say that at the core of it, option 2 is contradictory. Power is not in the hands of the workers for so-long as as the means of production are not in the hands of the workers; without economic power, which is what ownership of the means of production is, all other forms of power are vulnerable to whoever the owners of the means of production are.

That being said, of the two, I would say #1 is the more socialist state, but #2 is the more desirable state if the inherent contradiction was able to be resolved in some permanent and stable way.

I generally regard myself as an anti-capitalist first and foremost, and a socialist only by default; I'm not married to the idea that workers owning the means of production is the only way forward, or the only moral formulation of society.

At the same time, I also can't think of any immediately applicable alternatives, so I'm all-in on backing socialism in practical terms.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

only if you are strictly comparing it with full-force no-brakes capitalism

[–] SmoothOperator 1 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (3 children)

If we're working in the purely abstract, the welfare state is not necessarily ideal, but is there another currently implemented state ideology which serves its workers better? I.e. what would you compare it with which defeats it?

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