https://lemmy.ml/comment/16125064
Starring: blindbunny, BrainInABox and of course, the one and only, Cowbee!
I'm just always wondering about then being pro trans and pro-governement that is very anti-queer, I just can't.
this post was submitted on 17 Jan 2025
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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Never, under any circumstances, use the phrase "you people" unless you're in the mood for everyone in the universe to act like you just lost the argument.
Solid advice. It can be completely benign, but people will still pounce on it for an "easy win".
You people make some good points.
I mean you're not wrong in that people will often try to play the victim in that scenario, but there are plenty of intelligent people who can easily see such claims are merely a flimsy argumentative tactic. After all, we are discussing it right now, and its pretty easy to recognize when it happens.
Definitely still solid advice though, especially IRL. Online I feel like it's a bit more acceptable, because you don't even know the physical characteristics of the person you're arguing with, so it's much more difficult to twist you people into some kind of discriminatory or bigoted statement, given that the two debaters are anonymous.
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Imagine not being able to tell the difference between "I don't believe half of their users are trans" and "I don't believe in their users being trans".
Demographics isn't transphobic. Using trans people as a shield from criticism is.
EDIT: I looked over the October survey. The graphs aren't the cleanest but the data is there: 15% of all asked identified as trans, with another 9% as trans non-binary. A sample size of 600 to the 2300 monthly users is also really good, so the data ought to be very representative.
This is part of why the hard left, or at least the current version of it, has basically lost me. I firmly support the right of trans and queer folks to exist in the same relative peace and safety as everyone else, but in todays lefty political spaces you’re not allowed to disagree with what a trans person says without being transphobic. You can’t criticize a trans person for their shit takes or bad behavior without being transphobic. I even had a years long friendship end because raising the issue of a clear mental health episode involving paranoid delusion unrelated to their transition or transness made me a “dangerous transphobe”. This person had of course been hospitalized for self harm and major mental heath issues prior, and a desire to keep them safe was “transphobic”
Transphobia is bad. Trans exceptionalism is also bad.
Lots of leftists and even leftist groups/spaces acknowledge and criticize the bigotry of lowered expectations. Sometimes called the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. It's when you cut members of marginalized groups more slack simply because they're marginalized. Whether someone means it or not, it perpetuates that someone is less smart, less capable, simply because they're (gender)queer, a POC, disabled, etc. What you're describing fits the bill.
I'm part of leftist groups that call it out for the bigotry it is, and I hope you can find a leftist group that does, too. They do exist. Or maybe otherwise, you can read a little about the bigotry of lowered expectations and bring it up for discussion with groups that are unknowingly guilty of it. Maybe they can learn from you.
I appreciate this. Thanks. Honestly the other reason I’m not organizing much these days is because I’m busy making my material conditions better. Also being in a union feels like a praxis of its own, with surprisingly less bullshit than other forms of organizing. Who knows, maybe the next four years will see me back in it.
Yeah I feel you. I have had two memorable interactions with trans people who tried to say I was being transphobic for made up reasons. The most recent person went through my moderation history and found a comment I made which supposedly was homophobic. It was a comment roughly saying "trump is sucking off Putin" which was removed for "incivility". This of course proved that I am a hateful bigot and only wanted to disagree with the trans person due to who they are. Which btw was not something I had a fucking clue about until they called it out.
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Oh, they can tell the difference. It's just that their whole mentality is attuned to seizing on some trivial bullshit, deliberately misunderstanding it into some wild kind of caricature, and then lecturing the "opponent" about how they're wrong about everything.
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Thanks for bringing this up, Cowbee has been banned.
That guy is so annoying with his faux-neutrality/naivety. What a phony, good riddance.
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Literally the only place I have ever experienced transphobia on Lemmy was from a hexbear, who called me a chaser for saying that my ex was a trans woman.
so you're telling me that you used to free dive in the the deep part of the Mediterranean? that's thalassophobic /s
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Meanwhile, Lemmy Devs are saying the "transgender topic" is promoted by "the bourgeoisie", and how "biological men" shouldn't be competing in "women's sports"
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/25213024
(also, who the fuck says "biological men" in the transgender context, its called transgender women)
(also, who the fuck says "biological men" in the transgender context, its called transgender women)
Conservatives and other right wing that's who. That's why you hear tankie leadership saying it.
Tankies are anti-lgbtq at their core. Anything to simp for totalitarians.
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To be fair, hexbear did ban those devs for those comments.
It's a little noted fact that the lemmy devs don't really fuck with hexbear or vice versa. Presumably they also recognize the same childish, bad faith, obnoxious argumentative tactics that we have all come to know and love from hexbear.
While I'm on the topic, Nutomic and Dessalines also have very different views, and constantly referring to them as the monolithic tankie lemmy devs is somewhat reductive. Dessalines seems to be the more tankie-ish of the two based on the evidence I've seen.
It's fair to assume that a good number of the OG lemmy.ml users and lemmygrad users aren't big fans of hexbear either, considering hexbear has always maintained a separate space for themselves. Pretty wild that hexbear users are so toxic and misanthropic that even other tankies are repelled by them.
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"You people," huh?
I hate how they're incapable of actually thinking, so they latch onto specific phrases so they can pretend you're a racist so they don't have to engage with what you're actually saying
It seems unlikely that half of their users would be transgender, given that transgender people make up roughly .5% of the overall population; gay people (gay men + lesbians) make up roughly 4.5-5% of the overall population the last time I looked at demographics. All of the LGBTQ+ people together make up about 6% of the total population in the US.
These numbers might have changed somewhat in the last year or two since I last check surveys, but it's not likely that it's changed enough to move the numbers sharply.
I know that there was some investigative reporting in my state a few months ago trying to figure out how many minors would be affected by a state-level ban on insurance covering gender-affirming care for minors, and the number was in in the very low double digits. The same kind of numbers of athletes would be affected by bans on 'biological males' competing in womens' sports.
I'm just saying that it just doesn't seem very likely that an instance with thousands of users would have that kind of demographics, esp. when you consider that Hexbear broadly has a monolithic political identity.
I mean I could believe it about an arbitrary thing over a general populace. I mean like a gay bar is likely to have like 90% gay people in it. And its not like the federation is huge and it tends to attract out groups.
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The fuck with this obsession of telling people whether they are or are not trans online?
What a transphobic thing to say. You must be trans
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I don't believe ANY hexbear users are leftists either.
they'll probably say that's leftphobic. These cretins can't manage logic and reason.
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I tagged Cowbee as a tankie also. I despise the technique also: lobbing "-phobic" accusations if there's anything that can be seen as negative said in the same paragraph that mentions some group like trans people. It's shitty for multiple reasons.
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