this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2023
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[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 year ago (4 children)

A reminder to move to smaller instances for a better experience

A reminder that this constant advice people blindly parrot to install and flock to smaller instance has now created something like 1000 new servers in 50 days that are poorly run and already going offline as quickly as they went online.

Github Issue 2910 is the kind of PostgreSQL problems that the developers ignored for months and people still defend the developer choices to have the code doing real-time counting of every single comment and post for numbers nobody needs to needs done in real-time.

PostgreSQL is voodoo to this project, they do everything they can to avoid going to [email protected] community and asking for help, learning 101 about how to fix their SQL TRIGGER logic like Github Issue 2910 spelled out June 4.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A reminder that this constant advice people blindly parrot to install and flock to smaller instance has now created something like 1000 new servers in 50 days that are poorly run and already going offline as quickly as they went online.

I am always advocating for any of the top 25 instances that are not Lemmy.world or Lemmy.ml

For the rest of your post, I don't know what that has to do with people aggreating on LW.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (9 children)

For the rest of your post, I don’t know what that has to do with people aggreating on LW.

aggregation refers to the lemmy database tables, site_ aggregates, community, person. The SQL TRIGGER logic lemmy_server uses that has been the source of so many crashes the past 60+ days.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

A reminder that this constant advice people blindly parrot to install and flock to smaller instance has now created something like 1000 new servers in 50 days that are poorly run and already going offline as quickly as they went online.

And this will always.. always be the biggest problem in the FOSS community.

"I dont like X, so I'm going to leave and make my own version of X"

So userbases get spread thin, manpower gets spread thin, developers get spread thin, and the user experiences degrades for everyone until it pushes them back to the bullshit websites and products.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is exactly what federation is meant to solve: power in numbers without the centralization. Is that so hard to understand?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sometimes I question why people not in favor of the decentralization are commenting on a Fediverse platform. Why not go to Tildes, Squabbles or another centralized alternative? There is plenty of fish in the sea.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I know you are salty about how you are getting treated over at GitHub, but you should look at it objectively, Blaze is clearly advocating that people join top instances that's not lemmy.world or lemmy.ml, not nobody instances that only have 1-2 users. They certainly aren't going offline as quickly as they come online.

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[–] [email protected] 61 points 1 year ago (12 children)

You can also just have multiple accounts. I have one on lemm.ee just for this reason.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Definitely!

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

when I start writing this comment, the post is 47 minutes old. if I understand the linked page properly, lemmy.world has been functional (all green checkmarks) for the past 10 minutes which is the furthest back the data goes. All the other instances are all green except for lemmy.one which is all red. I am assuming that 47 minutes ago, lemmy.world had red boxes?

Maybe a different link would have explained the point better but I don't really see how a 30 minute (??) server outage during an upgrade is compelling to avoid a large instance. Are you suggesting it's better to use a server whos admins don't upgrade? If not, is there really any size of server that would meaningfully avoid this kind of occasional disruption? Seems to me that the dynamism of the environment will inevitably lead to various problems. That's part of the experience. TBH threadiverse uptime on the whole is pretty impressive for such a ragtag groups of admins and devs.

I have accounts on some smaller servers but they have their drawbacks too. Using a bigger server is more convenient because the people and content is already there. It's easier. I didn't plan to use lemmy.world but I ended up making account there to use sometimes.

I think in a year or so the situation might be different. I see the ideological point and I would like it to be true. Maybe the technology will catch up. I think it would be nice to be able to programmatically seed content, but maybe that would be obnoxious to admins.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I didn't track the timing too closely, but in the last few weeks there have been quite long disruption of service due to DDoS attacks on the largest instances.

I am personally quite tolerant towards Lemmy as a platform in its very infancy, but some other users might want to quit it due to this kind of annoyances, hence my comment about moving to a smaller instance.

the people and content is already there. It’s easier

What do you mean? You can access all of the content in the Threadiverse from whatever instance, modulo defederation, but Lemmy.world defederates quite a few instances too, so that's valid for both big and small instances. If you are talking about the "All" feed, which will indeed be empty if you are in a 10 people instances (communities need to be subscribed by an instance member for the instance to get the community content), then it's a valid issue, and that's why I suggest people to move to one of the 24 biggest instances that are not LW or Lemmy.ml

Lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, sopuli.xyz, reddthat.com, lemmy.one, your country instance (if it's big enough). I'm on sopuli since a while now, and I'm very happy with the experience. 680 monthly active users, so the All feed is pretty much identical to the one on Lemmy.world, except the vey niche community I either don't care about or would already know by myself.

The biggest issue I see with having everyone on LW is that at some point the costs will be too high for the admins. It's quite a big risk, and that why I'm advocating to use smaller instances.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The DB migration at the end of this upgrade is significant, I was surprised how long it took when I upgraded my instance. Lots of room for things to go wrong considering the size of their DB.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Just make a second account, the one I run, lemmy.myserv.one is so underutilized its a joke. Smaller instances like mine basically have to beg for users and the server goes unused while bigger instances struggle under the constant traffic.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

As always, I have to ask: is there a second admin, what would happen to the instance if something happened to you tomorrow (which I really wish will not!)

The Vlemmy.net disaster is still fresh in people's mind

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Ultimately I am the one paying the bill currently so if I die nobody elses credit card is being charged.

In terms of other admins, this is actually happening. Some smaller instances like mine are in the process of setting up a sharing admin work between instances so that if someone is on holiday, the instance still has an admin who can login. This was only just started and is in the process. We have to create a lot of documentation and basic stuff to get it fully functional where another admin can login and fix something. Its not at that stage yet and will be a couple more weeks before it is. We did a test last night where another instance admin (boulder.ly) could connect to my instance via ssh but without documentation on what to do and check anything more than the basics of rebooting or restarting something isnt going to happen. Eventually we will get it to what to do if site has a critical vulnerability or is being attacked but not ready yet. Its a work in progress unfortunately.

P

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Because using random tiny servers is worse in other ways. With all due respect, nobody knows you and they don't know how committed you are or how much time you have. When your server gets DDoSed or hits a bug causing data loss, what will you do? Do you have the technological know-how to recover and quickly? If your server suddenly grew and it became more expensive to run, how does anyone know if you will keep paying the bills? If Lemmy has a bad zero day, will you upgrade quickly?

There's no need to answer these questions. I'm not actually asking you personally. But these are the kinds of questions that users have to worry about from random, small, unproven instances.

(Also, Lemmy does not favour small instances because the "all" feed, searching, and going to new communities are all better the more diverse users you have.)

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course I have one or two other accounts, but I personally like Lemmy.world. They serve as a necessary stress test that shows the devs and admins how to optimize further, and I just like learning admin practices at this scale of a userbase from a work perspective. Plus I don't want to be on an instance so small they can't or don't know how to handle compliance stuff and evaporate if something like that comes up. Not saying I know how to handle all of those situations, that's the job of someone else at work.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that's one of the issues that the rest of the instances are facing to appear as trustful as LW. LW admins have a long established reputation and experience managing Fediverse services, and provide very good transparency and a large team.

Other instances are usually nowhere close to that (some will be in the future I hope). The question I usually raise when someone start promoting their instance is "how many admins do you have?´What happens if you run under a bus tomorrow (hopefully you'll stay safe of course)? Is there a back up plan in place?"

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yeah, longevity and name recognition are why I went with sdf.org. They've been running many-user services for decades, even if the Lemmy service is pretty new.

ETA: they've been around since BBSes. I'm on a wicked nerdy old-school geek instance, and I love my local communities.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Quoting myself from a previous post:

First of all, it's really fine to stay on LW for now, no need to rush anything. But if at some point you have some time for this, then read the following.

So, to pick your instance, you can have a look at https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list, filter by "1m" to see what are the most popular ones. As you can see, with a 27433 monthly users, Lemmy.world is by far the most popular, which is why you might experience some issues from time to time.

You should have a look at the next instances on the list. Short story: lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, lemmy.one, sopuli.xyz and reddthat.com are solid choices.

You are looking at instances with quite a lot of people (the more people help with filling your "All" feed), just not the most populous one (lemmy.world), the original one (lemmy.ml), and instances that are too specific, either due to country or specific focus.

Long story:

spoiler

  • lemmy.ml is the original insance, also quite crowded, not really the best choice
  • lemm.ee can be nice, you can have a look at it and see how fast it is for you. The admin communicates a lot and is very helpful.
  • sh.itjust.works had some rough time in the last few days. You might also not like the name, that's okay.
  • beehaw.org does not federate with the big instances, so if you go there, you will be in their own space. It can a valid choice, but please have a look at their guidelines first, they tend to moderate a lot. Can work for you, or not.
  • feddit.de, lemmy.ca, discuss.tchncs.de, feddit.uk, aussie.zone are country specific instances, so probably not interesting to you if you are not from there
  • lemmynsfw is a NSFW instance, probably not the one you want to move to
  • programming.dev is an instance focused on programming
  • lemmy.blahaj.zone is a pro queer instance

.

To migrate your settings (including subscriptions and blocked instances), you can use that script: https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I think there is a huge misconception many people have that a larger instance is more likely to stay around, but due to the nonlinear costs involved in hosting fediverse instances this is not true.

Basically there is a sweet-spot around a few thousand (~2500) members where costs are low enough for a single admin paying things out of their own pocket long term is possible, but also enough members willing to occasionally donate or contribute otherwise to cover costs.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To be honest, I know it's a controversial view, but I would almost like to see Ruud and the LW admins block registrations for a while, along with a communication "Have a look at those other instances, they are well managed, you can access all of Lemmy just as well from there"

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm not looking forward to 5 years from now, where instances like this are the mastodon.social of federated reddit-likes. As much as they should block registrations, I don't think they will. ...but I have a hat on stand by, just in case I need to eat it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think they're stuck in a vicious circle, their server costs scale with size but new users are way more likely to donate. Users that have already donated feel like they've done their bit for a while, and that's if they're still around and engaged in a few weeks. Very few people want to donate monthly, subscription style.

My personal controversial view is people should put more faith in well-run self-hosted instances. It's a much more sustainable way to run a Fediverse server and self-hosted doesn't have to mean amateur hour. Just because an instance is cloud hosted doesn't mean it's well configured or secure either.

I have way more resources at my disposal than the vast majority of cloud hosted instances, for a tiny fraction of the cost. lemm.ee for example is very well run but has to put up with a 100kb image size limit because of cost-driven space constrains.

Self hosting is also closer to the spirit of what decentralization is supposed to mean - your server ultimately belongs to your host.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

LASIM author here, ironically on my own alt: Just an FYI that support for Lemmy 0.18.3 is not yet out, but keep an eye out for it soon (I have it working on a branch but I need to test it more before release).

This is the first breaking API change since it's creation, so here are the limitations:

  • Old version (0.1.2) will only support API 0.18.1 and 0.18.2
  • New version (0.2.0) will only support 0.18.3 (and above until there are more breaking API changes)
  • Profiles downloaded with 0.1.2 (and below) will automatically be converted to work with 0.2.0.

So that all means:

  • You can use the old LASIM to migrate between 0.18.2 Lemmy instances
  • You can use the new LASIM to migrate between 0.18.3 Lemmy instances
  • You can use the old LASIM to download from an 0.18.2 instance then use the new LASIM to upload to a 0.18.3 instance
  • You cannot use the new LASIN to download from a 0.18.3 instance and then the old LASIM to upload to a 0.18.2 instance (unless you are comfortable doing some manual work editing the JSON file so "old LASIM" understands it).

This will be true of every release with breaking API changes.

EDIT: PR is out. Once it builds, I'll publish a new release! https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim/pull/21

EDIT 2: Release is published! https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim/releases/tag/v0.2.0

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thank you for the heads up! You might want to add that to the ReadMe on your Github

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lemm.ee is amazing with a top admin

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[–] phil299 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

working fine for me , actually I have to say lemmy.world has been very stable

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As I said elsewhere

There are certain things that are memory intensive and CPU intensive. If you have 10k on one server doing that it really adds up. However having them across a wide range of smaller servers, its not such a big deal.

As a user, you literally lose out on nothing not being on lemmy.world. You can partake in all the same conversations, communities and everything. In fact when lemmy.world is down, you can still see everything and when it comes back up, your posts will synchronize. There's genuinely no upside to being on lemmy.world. That's the way the system was designed.

Not sure people will listen though. I will always talk up the amazing admin I have on lemmy.tf, but it's also worth mentioning that I have a bunch of communities hosted on other instances and each and every one of them is amazing.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Has anyone any idea what's going on with lemmy.one? It's been down for quite a while now

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Probably some hiccup in upgrading to 18.3

[–] Default_Defect 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just waiting patiently to get approved on midwest.social

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

The instance lemmy.kya.moe that I created my alt on performs well too if anyone else is looking for an alternative :D

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I moved to self hosting mine instance :)

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