this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2024

248 points (90.0% liked)

News

23609 readers

4144 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil

Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.

2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.

Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.

3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.

Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.

4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.

Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.

5. Only recent news is allowed.

Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.

6. All posts must be news articles.

No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.

7. No duplicate posts.

If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.

8. Misinformation is prohibited.

Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.

9. No link shorteners.

The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.

10. Don't copy entire article in your post body

For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

248

The Only Kind of “Political Violence” All U.S. Politicians Oppose (theintercept.com)

submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/news

35 comments fedilink hide all child comments

A BIPARTISAN SAMPLING of the world’s greatest perpetrators and enablers of political violence has rushed to condemn political violence following the shooting attempt on former President Donald Trump on Saturday.

“The idea that there’s political violence … in America like this, is just unheard of, it’s just not appropriate,” said President Joe Biden, the backer of Israel’s genocidal war against Palestine, with a death toll that researchers believe could reach 186,000 Palestinians. Biden’s narrower point was correct, though: Deadly attacks on the American ruling class are vanishingly rare these days. Political violence that is not “like this” — the political violence of organized abandonment, poverty, militarized borders, police brutality, incarceration, and deportation — is commonplace.

And condemn it, most everyone in the Democratic political establishment has: “Political violence is absolutely unacceptable,” wrote Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., on X. “There is absolutely no place for political violence in our democracy,” tweeted former President Barack Obama, who oversaw war efforts and military strikes against Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan with massive civilian death tolls; Obama added that we should “use this moment to recommit ourselves to civility and respect in our politics.” “There is no place for political violence, including the horrific incident we just witnessed in Pennsylvania,” wrote Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y.

The chorus of condemnation was predictable and not in itself a problem: There’s nothing wrong with desiring a world without stochastic assassination attempts, even against political opponents. But when you have Israel’s minister of foreign affairs, Israel Katz of the fascistic ruling Likud Party, tweeting, “Violence can never ever be part of politics,” the very concept of “political violence” is evacuated of meaning.

top 35 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] 113 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

The 'monopoly of violence' is a useful lens to use around things like this. Despite being less accountable than normal citizens for it, the state has monopolized violence to be acceptable for them to commit, but unacceptable for others.

The state will even often times will use violence to arrest or put down non violent situations or people as well. Like the student protestors, George Floyd and any number of other police killings we've seen.

[+] [email protected] -20 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Yes, this is by design and it's a good thing. That's what the state is for.

People are losing the plot around here.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I disagree. This particular state continues to give itself more authority without more accountability. Allow that to continue and you won't have a state left either, well not a free one anyway.

Also studies about America's Political system continue to show most people don't really have a say in what happens at the federal level. You got swing states and thats it.

How long can a society remain free when the monopoly on voilence is given based on a minority of voters?

[+] [email protected] -7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

You're changing the subject, though. The state having the monopoly on violence is a trait of civil societies in general. You can break a liberal democracy in many, many ways entirely unrelated to that issue, which is ultimately just that individual citizens aren't allowed to enact their will through violent acts and instead must appeal to the state for restitution when they are wronged.

The US's issues aren't that the government doesn't allow its private citizens to legally act violently (the exact opposite is a problem in the US, in fact), and having a monopoly on violence doesn't bear one way or the other on whether a country's international policy is compliant with international law.

Words mean things.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Never said that was the problem. Said it was a good lens to use. Makes a lot of people look real hypocritical. The disagreement was about the US's monopoly on violence in particular being a good thing. Do anyones cops kill more civilians per capita than US cops? Because we know no one imprisons more people per capita. We have a lot of violence given electoral mandate by the minority. That's the problem, and that in itself even threatens the monopoly as those in the majority going unheard realize they don't have a lot of options. A riot is the language of the unheard. Similar effect.

[+] [email protected] -7 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No, the notion that

Despite being less accountable than normal citizens for it, the state has monopolized violence to be acceptable for them to commit, but unacceptable for others

is no more true in the US than Finland or France. All modern countries legally prevent their citizens from taking violent action. This is normal. It's intended, it's a good thing.

The problem is with accountability for the agents of the state, which has nothing to do with the monopoly on violence, it has to do with the criminal system and how the use of that violence is controlled.

If you say the monopoly on violence is the issue with the US's police violence issue what you're saying isn't that the police should be controlled better in their deployment of force, you're saying that individuals should be able to shoot back at the police or, in fact, at anybody else they don't like.

Which is clearly already way too frequent in the US. The interpretation of exceptions to enable private violence, be it the right to bear arms or the insane "stand your ground" rules and other expansive interpretations of legitimate defense are part of the problem. The state's monopoly on violence in the US is too lax, not too strict. Which is mostly unrelated with the fact that the state deploys violence unjustly or without enough accountability or limitation.

Those are different things. I don't think you mean what your statement is implying, I think you mean the other thing, but that's what you're saying and you can probably see how that's a problem.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

If you say the monopoly on violence is the issue with the US’s police violence issue what you’re saying isn’t that the police should be controlled better in their deployment of force, you’re saying that individuals should be able to shoot back at the police or, in fact, at anybody else they don’t like.

I'm saying in theory the monopoly of violence is given mandate through elections, and in the US those winning elections do not always do so by being the most popular. It's an issue that goes higher than the police as the monopoly is transferred to those without an actual majority of support. The President is commander in chief of the executive branch, that includes the cops. The problems are coming from the top down. It's considerably different than any of the other countries you mentioned.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You're talking about democratic legitimacy, not about the monopoly on violence. Non democratic countries also have a monopoly on violence for the state, it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the state to represent the will of the People.

If your argument is that the current electoral or political system in the US lacks legitimacy because it's not representative enough I can agree with that. But the monopoly on violence by the state is the same with or without that issue, and the lack of legitimacy doesn't change the fact that you don't want random people being allowed to resolve their grievances violently.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The use of violence against citizens in America remains an high outlier compred to more than most developed free countries. This isn't simply a legatimacy of government issue, it's also a use of violence issue. Why does it have to be one or the other?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Because nobody wants the government to stop being the only one who is allowed to deploy violence. So the monopoly on violence is not in question.

The solution to the government abusing its monopoly on violence is accountability and regulation, not to remove the monopoly and allow people to just shoot each other freely.

I didn't bring up legitimacy, by the way, you were the one to claim that the government doesn't have enough support from the majority. That is an unrelated issue, as far as I'm concerned.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I already adressed why legitimacy is an issue above.

I'm saying in theory the monopoly of violence is given mandate through elections, and in the US those winning elections do not always do so by being the most popular.

If it's not given popular mandate it's just another form of war. Again the whole point of this is to use the monopoly of violence as a lens. Thats how I started the whollllle comment chain. You seem to think that means I want it abolished, which no one's said this whole conversation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

No, it's not "another form of war". Plenty of illiberal countries have a strong monopoly on violence and nobody conceptualizes that as them being at war with their population. That's absurd.

Making grandiose declarations doesn't make them make sense. I wish people took an extra breath to check what they are actually saying when they post.

Also, if you're not saying you want to abolish the monopoly on violence by the state what are you saying? Because that's the thing about monopolies, you either have it or you don't. As I've said above, control and accountability don't remove the monopoly on violence, and the US already has an unusually lax regulation on this issue. So what are you saying?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Im saying a few things. First and foremost im saying every politician condemning violence is full of shit. Secondly Im saying the monopoly on violence in the US is not a good thing for two distinct reasons: The system often give the head executive office to someone who doesn't have a popular mandate, meaning the people they place in the positions to execute the state violence shouldn't have the right to hold their position. On top of that no free country half as safe as American uses violence on its citizens more. That is not a sustainable model of monopoly of violence. Hell even the courts are both illegitimate and practicing violence, particularly against women. So it's not even contained to the executive branch.

So in short, politicians lie, illegitimate officers are executing violence on civilians, and more violence on civilians than anyone else. How long does a country like that stay free? Because the answer could just be about 5 more months.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

So what is a US where there is no monopoly on violence by the state in your view? Or rather, if it is a "bad thing", what is a good thing? How do you see this working?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The same way US prisons are a bad thing but no serious prison abolitionist things the solution is to instantly release all prisoners right now. We need to take corrective steps and if I knew the in's and out's of all those steps I probably wouldn't be trying to have discussions on social media, and instead be writing books, running for office, or starting a movement.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

So you know it's bad but you don't know what good looks like.

Please consider the possibility that this is because it's not bad at all to have the state, rather than private citizens, hold the sole ability to use force, and that the problems you've observed may be unrelated to that principle. Not that they don't exist, just that they are not caused by what you're saying they are.

I leave you with that, in genuine good faith.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago

You're right and the down votes are reactionary. The alternative to the state having a monopoly on violence is even more violent parties. The benefit of a monopoly is violence resting with the state is that the violence is subjected to checks and balances. Perhaps those checks and balances aren't as restrictive as we might like, but the alternative is unchecked violence.

Obviously we prefer no violence, and yes violence is abused by parties within the state. But that's a separate issue. If we dismantled the monopoly, violence would skyrocket and what little regulation our institutions enforce would vanish. That's objectively worse

The world is a nasty place, solutions being unsavory doesn't preclude them being the best option.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago

I can't believe you're being downvoted for this. The only alternative to government monopoly on violence is that corporations and other citizens are free to interpret laws and use violence to enforce them. You really want Walmart running their own armed police squad? You want the kkk running their own legal military? You want your neighbour able to legally shoot you because they thought your tree was dropping leaves on their property?

It's absurd that ANYONE would support broader adoption of legal violence. These people have lost their marbles.

[–] [email protected] 57 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It’s funny to see how Republicans have been “we don’t condone violence” and “this is unacceptable”.

Go look at their reactions to the attack on Paul Pelosi. You know, the celebrations, the “Democrats had it coming”. Funny how things change

[–] TheRealKuni 4 points 5 months ago

There were Republicans decrying the attack on Pelosi. Of course there were people saying stuff like “Democrats had it coming,” just like we have people saying “How could you miss” about this.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Only politicians are against violence against politicians

[–] jaybone 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

And regardless of what side of the aisle, they will all stand together on this. Why? Maybe because any one of them could be next.

We never had the guillotines in this country. So the ruling class never learned that part the hard way.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

Exactly. Politicians serve the people. Or else.

[–] Etterra 17 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It's unheard of

So you've never picked up a history book, I see. There's a few obscure guys who would disagree with your assertion. I'll list them off, but I doubt you'll recognize any of the names.

Andrew Jackson
Abraham Lincoln
James Garfield
Theodore Roosevelt
William McKinley
John F. Kennedy
Ronald Reagan
William Taft
Herbert Hoover
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry Truman
Gerald Ford
George W. Bush
Barack Obama

Don't feel bad, I wouldn't expect you to have heard of any of them.

[–] HurlingDurling 10 points 5 months ago

You forgot a couple of senators including JFKs younger brother. But yeah, super obscure names, Im suprised someone else online knows about these.

[–] Tier1BuildABear 14 points 5 months ago

The only kind they ALL oppose, apparently, is against Republicans. When it's against Democrats the Republicans cheer.

[–] Aceticon 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Pretty much the entirety of mainstream political speech boils down to the Elites being special and what is good and proper for them is not the same as what is good and proper for the rest, both in terms of what they can do and what can be done to them.

And this is in all political regimes, Democracy as much as Autocracy.

So the only surprise there can be in this comes from generally in Democracy the "we are different from you" kind of speech tends to be far more subtle and indirect (say, justifying politicians exclusion from certain surveillance laws due to their "responsibilities" or having law apply differently to "businesses" which is just a way to act towards the wealth of the Owner class differently than towards that of the Worker class), so some people hadn't yet spotted how throroughly normalized and generally applied the double standard of the Elites is.

For anybody trying to look at the forest rather than getting fixated on individual trees, this stuff is immediately obvious as absolutely within the general pattern of behaviour of these people (it's the mainstream politicians that do NOT think like this that are the exceptional ones).

[–] LustyArgonianMana 6 points 5 months ago

The party that wants to execute pedophiles and rapists is shocked when Donald Trump, a known rapist of a 12 year old girl, almost gets shot

[–] SeattleRain 2 points 5 months ago

Finally a good take on this.

[+] [email protected] -29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

the very concept of “political violence” is evacuated of meaning

The author of this piece is the one doing that. Hint: it doesn't mean everything he personally doesn't approve of.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Are you saying that political violence that one approves of is not political violence?

[–] [email protected] -5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

This is obvious and, honestly, the arguments against it are so weak and rely on such a niche, deliberate misunderstanding of how... you know, reality works, that it's probably not worth engaging with them. Especially not now. It's still shocking to see it written down, though, at least until one remembers that people can just write whatever they want on social media.

I'll give them this, though: the notion that political violence like this is "unheard of" in the US is absurd. It is shockingly frequent.