WARNING: THREAD CONTAINS BOOTLICKERS Hey there user tread lightly this thread have bootlickers .
this post was submitted on 18 Apr 2024
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We could do away with such attention seeking comments tbh, it's good that some have different views imo because you can argue with them. Isn't that the point of this site?
would you prefer for the comments to be all just long string of: "fuck meta" ?
This is lemmy. Any valid argument is shat out by the devil himself if it might be construed to support the perceived “strong one” in a relationship.
Well it doesn't have to be like this. We can choose to try to keep things more quality. Lemmy is us.
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It's not really that bad. It was 1 single comment chain. If you don't want to read the debate, it's a fairly trivial task to collapse the parent comment and carry on with your day.
I’m all for GDPR and really enjoy its protections, but I don’t understand this one. If facebook says they need €10/mo to provide their services and gives us the choice to either pay that or to pay with targeted ads, then how does that infringe upon our data [Edit: ~~integrity~~ autonomy]? The service seems to be worth something, so the EU cannot expect facebook to just give it out for less, can they? What’s the basis for this?
They can just charge €10/mo like every other company does, for example Netflix. They can't offer it as an alternative to the "freely given consent". It's not freely given if the alternative is to pay to not give this consent.
You're free to not use Facebook.
Also, your argument breaks down because there are plenty of free streaming platforms that use targeted advertising as payment for their services.
If anything, Facebook doing this is surprising because they're making data collection opt-in.
The biggest problem with this approach is basically Facebook saying that you have to pay for a right, meaning, if the law tells you that you can, and should, always have a say if you are followed around or not, you mist have that capability. What Facebook is doing is put a right behind a paywall, which is absurd
If I understand you correctly, you’re making the same argument as [email protected] above, so I’ll copy answer to them here:
That is a completely different issue. On the one hand, meta does collect data on people who do not have an account. This is simply illegal, since that collection is neither necessary nor consented to. The EU should finally put a stop to that.
On the other hand we have the voluntary relationship a user enters with facebook by creating an account. This is what the article is about and what I was referring to in my comment – the “binary choice between paying for a service and consenting to their personal data being used to provide targeted advertising”
Are there any rights you think should supersede contracts? If so, how do you draw the line between rights that do and don’t?
Are there any rights you think should supersede contracts? If so, how do you draw the line between rights that do and don’t?
(I’ll answer your question in a comment side-chain, just because you asked.)
Germans have the right to continued wage payments if they need to take care of family members (§616 BGB). However, that right can be voided in the employment contract.
(§618 BGB) essentially states that the work environment must be reasonably safe. This cannot be voided by contract, as is codified in (§619 BGB).
These are just instances. I do not know any general rules for the precedence of contracts over the law or vice versa.
Sorry, but why do you think that (§616 BGB) should be able to be voided by an employment contract?
I’m not sure which meaning of ‘should be able to be voided’ you’re using. Do you mean ‘Why do think it’s legal to void it’ or ‘Why do you think it’s legitimate to be able to void it’?
In the first case: My employment contract does exactly this. It’s become kind of a default clause in contracts. Researching this you’ll find a lot of websites (in German) that say that the clause is ‘abdingbar’ (which I translated as ‘voidable’).
In the second case: I didn’t say I thought it legitimate, and I don’t have a strong opinion on this.
Are there any rights you think should supersede contracts?
That is beside the point I’m making. Facebook acknowledges the right to privacy by giving you the choice to pay for the service rather than giving up your data. In my view, this should be completely acceptable by the GDPR. No-one is forcing you to sign up to facebook, so you do have a completely free choice to (1) either not give up your data and not use facebook; or (2) not give up your data and pay for the service; or (3) give up your data and pay for the service that way.
This is just about paying to not have ads, not about data collection.
Firstly, this is not "my argument", this is EU's argument.
Secondly, none of these platforms present it as a choice between paying and giving the kind of consent that by law needs to be optional and freely given.
Thirdly, being free to not use a service that is breaking the law does not make it any less illegal.
not really, its so ubiquitous some of their services cant be not used.
its impossible to exist in my country without whatsapp, most businesses do their customer service through whatsapp now.
its impossible to exist in my country without whatsapp, most businesses do their customer service through whatsapp now.
My goodness. That is incredibly sad :(
No, it's not. It's just less convenient.
That's like saying the US has functional public transit, it's just less convenient.
hahah i wish
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They can put all the ads they want to finance their services, but if they want to use targeted ones, they have to ask for unbiased users consent.
Suppose non-targeted ads didn’t generate enough revenue. Would it then be legitimate to require facebook to provide their service at a loss?
I would say no. Just as it's not legitimate for any other business to break the law even if that means they're not going to be profitable
I can’t find the word ‘unbiased’ in the GDPR. All it asks for is consent:
- Processing shall be lawful only if and to the extent that at least one of the following applies:
a) the data subject has given consent to the processing of his or her personal data for one or more specific purposes;
In the case of facebook, the user gives consent for the purpose of being served targeted advertising in exchange for the provided service.
[Edit:] Found something:
When assessing whether consent is freely given, utmost account shall be taken of whether, […] the provision of a service, is conditional on consent to the processing of personal data that is not necessary for the performance of that contract. Article 7, paragraph 4 GDPR
So the question of whether the pay-or-consent model is legal hinges upon the question of whether payment (in any form) is “necessary for the performance of that contract“.
Yes the term is "freely given consent" indeed, but more importantly: Why would you not trust the EU Data Protection Board if they say themselves that consent-or-pay is not okay?
Meta is currently acooping all my data as someone who does not a Meta account, which I would need to create ao I could pay them money not to do that.
No, not all the targeted advertising that they collect data for is through Facebook/whatever else they own now.
That is a completely different issue. On the one hand, meta does collect data on people who do not have an account. [Edit: Source: https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics-computers/privacy/how-facebook-tracks-you-even-when-youre-not-on-facebook-a7977954071/] This is simply illegal, since that collection is neither necessary nor consented to. The EU should finally put a stop to that.
On the other hand we have the voluntary relationship a user enters with facebook by creating an account. This is what the article is about and what I was referring to in my comment – the “binary choice between paying for a service and consenting to their personal data being used to provide targeted advertising”
On the one hand, meta does collect data on people who do not have an account. This is simply illegal, since that collection is neither necessary nor consented to. The EU should finally put a stop to that.
Good that you brought that up. And that deserves more attention!
I didn't read the massive thread, no idea if the correct answer is already in there, but there seems to be a lot of text and the answer is realy short.:
This does not prohibit them from using Ads to finance the service.
It just prohibits data collection.
Those two things are not the same.
It also doesn't prohibit Facebook from being a purely paid service.
Privacy is a fundamental human right. It’s not a luxury or a means to extort or monetize customers. That’s why the EU is getting involved. Because companies like Meta will leverage them against monetization.
It’s like going to your doctor and having them tell you that unless you pay them $50 for the visit, they’ll sell your medical data to whomever.
A company has to build their services on top of privacy and security, not use either as a means to monetize or boost profits. That’s what the EU is fighting for. Because we all know what happens when it’s left up to the companies…
Just wondering, do you know that reading the article where it's all explained in detail is an option?
Before the change 3% of facebook users agreed to be tracked, after "pay or be tracked" suddenly that jumped to over 90%. The entire point of GDPR is that privacy is a really hard thing to grasp, and that companies have capabilities most people can't even imagine. So the GDPR demands consent to be given freely. Giving users the choice between yet another subscription or "consent" is clearly not free consent, your "free consent" doesn't jump from 3% to 90% if you're not basically coercing your users.
"yeah, but they have the option to pay". Yeah, and then i can start paying for google (each service seperately with complex bundles of course), and facebook, and reddit, and twitter and tiktok and .... and of course everyone has hundreds of dollars to spend on online services to continue using the internet the way we've been using it for a decade.
"yeah, but you could use other services", yeah, i could go to a facebook alternative where none of my friends or family are. Or a youtube alternative where hardly anyone posts videos or... These sites have gained a natural monopoly by being free, and now suddenly i have to pay to not have my rights violated.
And will this long term mean sites like facebook, youtube, ... become unprofitable and collapse? I for sure hope so yes. These companies gained a monopoly in big parts of the internet, and will make insane profits of being in that position either via ads or subscriptions. This is a terrible place for society to be in, and the sooner they collapse, the sooner we as society can start figuring out what would be a model that does work and isn't hostile to its user.
gives us the choice to either pay that or to pay with targeted ads,
Facebook never offered that choice. The only options were
- Free: All of your data gets used and sold (and you get ads)
- Paid: All of your data gets used and sold (except for the stuff that would usually be used to show ads)
They can still serve you ads, they simply cannot help themselves to your data.
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Facebook and Instagram, two of the worst digital creations of all time in terms of sheer damage to human beings.
Not to defend Instagram cause fuck Meta. I'm curious how it would've turned out if Meta didn't buy them way back. Same with WhatsApp. Could they have been great apps now a days instead of deserving of our scourn?
I remember Instagram when it was new. It was an actually photography app. Of course it had the edgy filters (which ~15 year old me made full use of). But the pictures people posted actually had a bit of effort behind them.
Then it started becoming another mainstream social media where most pictures were about people's lunches. I didn't stick around for it's final phase of business ads and thots.
I think it lost the cool factor by the time FB bought it but maybe it would've taken longer to become as ad-infested as it is today
100% agree. Around for that time too. It's why I wonder what it could've become.
Ain't nothing wrong with posting mundane pictures. I mean, look at PixelFed. Same shit happening but no horrible ads, no crappy algo, nobody trying to sell you shit. Just people posting pics.
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Hmmm it looks like social media became a basic necessity, among some at least
The thing that jumps out to me here is that mobile data is apparently worth 20% more than web data and that in no way surprises me but very much pisses me off
Pretty sure it’s because both Apple and Google shave a commission off the top of any in-app purchases. So if you buy a subscription in the app, Meta would actually make less money. So to compensate, they increase the price for in-app purchases.
Alternatively, it could be because adblockers are less prevalent on mobile. Even casual desktop users have begun using adblockers, but very few people block ads on mobile.
It may be higher for two reasons. First thing I thought of, they're accounting for Play Store/iOS fees. Second, I guarantee there's loads more mobile users they can make a few more pennies off of.
~~As far as I know, the service fees only apply to apps that charge for their app or have in-app purchases.~~ sorry, I misunderstood what you meant
I assume that difference has more to do with the value of ads being higher on a smartphone given the abundance of data that isn't available via browser.
Huh, I'm curious how this one turns out. Lots of German news outlets use some kind of privacy paywall for their websites. Its always some pop-up with "read the article for free with tracking or subscribe to [newspaper name] Pure/Plus". So this might affect way more smaller companies than just Meta.
I mean I don't like the choice but at least it's a choice. Journalism costs money so they have to get their budget somewhere, I guess.
If I were an advertiser, the people who pay for privacy would become my primary target.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
It followed requests by the Dutch, Norwegian, and Hamburg Data Protection Authorities and complaints about Meta, the social media company that owns Facebook, WhatsApp, and Instagram.
"Most users consent to the processing in order to use a service, and they do not understand the full implications of their choices," EDPB chair Anu Talus said in a statement.
But a Meta spokesperson said: "Last year, the Court of Justice of the European Union ruled that the subscriptions model is a legally valid way for companies to seek people's consent for personalized advertising.
In November last year, privacy activist group noyb (None Of Your Business) filed a complaint with the Austrian data protection authority against Meta for introducing the subscription model.
At the time, Felix Mikolasch, data protection lawyer at noyb, said: "EU law requires that consent is the genuine free will of the user.
In February, consumer groups filed their own complaint to stop Meta giving EU users a "fake choice" between the subscription offer and consenting to being profiled and tracked via data collection.
The original article contains 556 words, the summary contains 174 words. Saved 69%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
privacy activist group noyb (None Of Your Business)
More info about them:
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