this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024

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Why can't I just buy it without being charged for preinstalled spyware? (lemmy.world)

submitted 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) by TimeNaan to c/linuxmemes

179 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Image description:

Shopping for a laptop as a Linux user:

Screenshot from the Simpsons where Otto is talking to Marge and Homer standing next to a window in their house with a caption "Oh wow, windows!... I don't think I can afford this place."

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[–] [email protected] 134 points 10 months ago (41 children)

I hate that nowadays everything comes with pre-installed spyware and that they charge you for it makes it even worse..

Want a TV? Suck on our Android TV with Google spyware embedded
Want a phone? Get our Android with Google spyware, or go for an Apple with Apple spyware
Want a computer? We'll shove Windows spyware down your throat

Ffs I just want devices that I own to not spy on me, and I can't even buy them anymore..

Each of them require flashing a custom privacy respecting OS onto it,
and that's a real problem..

[–] [email protected] 37 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

Nice list, I would add routers (not everywhere). But for example here in Germany you get a device from your ISP for free but don't try to change the DNS settings because your ISP wants to know what you are doing online.

Only alternative is a fritzbox which is highly overpriced for a simple router+modem. >200€ for a cablerouter.

I had to buy a used fritzbox, need to nearly hacked them for activating the deactivated bridge-mode and put a cheap Asus router on it with flashed openwrt.

I needed 6 months for the whole setup.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Unless you are using DoH or DoT it does not matter which DNS server you have configured on the modem/router, DNS requests are sent as plain text so your ISP can still see them and will know which sites you are seeing.

OpenWRT with DoH or DoT bypasses that problem, alternatively a VPN with custom DNS. Also a Pihole or Adguard instance never hurt. But at the end of the day someome owns those DNS servers and will likely log your use.

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[–] captainlezbian 17 points 10 months ago (2 children)

The tv thing is the most insane. Like I grew up used to knowing phones are all tapped and computers too. But I pay to not have ads on tv but my tv itself has ads. And I can run a Linux computer and we’re getting somewhere with spyware and ad free phones even if it’s not yet where I need to switch, but tv, fucking hell

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's not even the spyware or ads that piss me off the most about "smart" TVs, it's how they always seem to lag to fucking shit. I've mostly used lower end ones, but even a few mid range ones I've used are still laggy pieces of shit that obviously have the cheapest components imaginable. Which for a normal tv is fine, expected even! But on a "smart" tv where to do anything at all you have to dig through their shitty, counter intuitive "smart" menu, it just sucks.

And then you want to watch some normal tv after a long day and the fuckin thing won't let you because it demands it installs an update, which thanks to those cheap components, takes far longer than it should

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[–] ransomwarelettuce 9 points 10 months ago

Yeah and try to load a custom OS into anything other than an computer is a nightmare, just last week while trying to install twrp recovery and flash a custom ROM which I been doing for quite some while hard bricked my phone, mad ended up fucking it completely by trying to fix it with mtkclient.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately it's concept which were in the past.Nowdays u are not owning ur device,you are actually just renting it. Unless new laws are passed that will prohibit such a business model.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I do own my devices.

Companies want you to not own the devices, and rent them through a subscription model,
however I refuse to do that.

If you do that / fall for that,
then you're part of the problem making such a future a reality..

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

I refuse this too,but i explained current trend and we will not able to do anything about it without law.

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[–] markstos 63 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Buy a Framework, System76 or something else with first class Linux support.

[–] TimeNaan 70 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (15 children)

Love their concept but I just can't afford it. My problem isn't finding a machine that works well with Linux. It's finding a machine that I can afford. And the stupid windows fee for something I will immediately uninstall is a big deal to me.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I think most Lenovo and dell computers provide you with the option to go without an OS or something like Ubuntu.

[–] TimeNaan 23 points 10 months ago

Only select top-end models in my country unfortunately.

[–] Resol 8 points 10 months ago

Ubuntu is basically the only Linux distro I've seen offered on most computers from most if the big manufacturers.

Want something else? Install it yourself, or get a Slimbook or something similar to that.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (9 children)

Have you considered second hand? I'm not talking second hand specifically for framework or other mentioned brands, but just in general.

I feel it is not yet normalized to consider second hand for electronics, yet you can find quite some good deals. Not everything needs to be bought new, especially if you are price sensitive. One generation or 2 older hardware bought second hand can be better and cheaper than new.

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[–] chronicledmonocle 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

Framework has their 11th gen Intel laptops right now as a barebones for $499 USD from B-stock, new components, if that interests you.

Otherwise, Chromebooks that you can flash replacement coreboot are another good option.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Dell sells Linux laptops too don’t they?

[–] Rooki 14 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Every laptop manufacturers sell linux laptops they just dont know it.

Framework is a bit different, it has direct support for their hardware drivers on many linux distros and endorses linux to be installed on their laptops.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

OP doesn’t want to pay the extra $120 for an OS he’s never gonna use. Yes everyone sells a Linux laptop but there’s a few companies that won’t charge you for Windows on top of that.

[–] TimeNaan 11 points 10 months ago

Thank you, it seems the point of this meme is lost on some Lemmings :D

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Right . . . but Dell ship select models with Ubuntu preinstalled, these certified devices come with their OEM package which has support for their drivers, etc. and obvs by selling them with Linux, they are endorsing it on their select models of laptops as well.

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Not to be that "aktchually" guy, but Microsoft actually ends up paying OEM's to ship with Windows, in order to drive costs down to be more affordable than competitors. You can still reimage with Linux, which I know, is an extra step from it shipping with Linux, but in a wild turn of events, we can thank Microsoft for driving down the prices of our to-be-Linux machines ;)

[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Have never seen this as a consumer though. I remember buying a laptop 10 years ago without OS since it was cheaper than same model with preinstalled Windows. Checked a random laptop and same still applies, version with Windows costs 30 eur more in my local webshop for what seems to be the same model with same specifications (No English available, use translate if needed):

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think that was only true back in the 90s, when there were still other OSes to compete against Windows, like OS/2, Solaris and BeOS late in the decade. Once Microsoft effectively dominated the consumer PC market (2000s?), they turned around to threaten to never do business with OEMs that dared to bundle competitors' OS. They also did something similar in Japan, which destroyed NEC (who created the PC-88 and PC-98, the most popular 80s and early 90s computers there) dominance.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago

I haven't met a Linux user that would consider leaving the factory installed OS instead of immediately blowing it out and installing their own

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

This route does still count as a Windows sale and you still pay for the license.
So if the manufacturer offers a "no os" option, rather than any Linux option, it's still a better choice than "Windows" if you know you will reimage to something else anyway.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Friend: "What's your system specs?"

Me: "12-core Ryzen CPU, 64GB RAM, 3080ti GPU"

F: "Nice. What games do you play?"

M: "Games...? Is that what else people do with these things?"

[–] [email protected] 27 points 10 months ago (1 children)

These days it's not uncommon to have a powerful GPU just for AI acceleration.

[–] Aux 18 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Or for photo editing. Or video editing. Or CAD work. Or a lot more stuff.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"Your laptop's sticker price already includes windows license fee. You're welcome!"

-- Microsoft

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 10 months ago (1 children)

In Europe, laptops without an operating system (often referred to as DOS installed) are available. Prices start from 300 EUR.

[–] TimeNaan 14 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I am in Europe but these laptops are rare in the low price end unfortunately.

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[–] Smokeydope 20 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The bigger issue for me is every device advertised to be linux based and privacy oriented is >400$ usually around 700-800$

I understand that tech savy IT people are usually financially cushy enough that they can eat a almost thousand dollar bill on their laptop and not think twice about it but man I just can't ever see myself willing to shell out that much cash for a fancy laptop with physical kill switches or modularbility. Bring that price tag down a couple hundred dollars system 76 and Purism, then well talk. Until then the dude on ebay selling librebooted ghostpads are more likely to get my money.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

A lot of the time you aren't actually paying for the license afaik. If you look at a pre built and spec it out on PC part picker, the pre built can often come at a lower price bc the PC is subsidized with payment from the bloatware that is pre installed (think McAfee). Microsoft also sells the licenses in bulk to the store for huge discounts. Windows business model is a lot more about selling you 365 and your data than the operating system.

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[–] bruhduh 14 points 10 months ago

There are new laptops without os preinstalled (freedos actually installed) i bought my hp255g8 Ryzen 5700u laptop few years ago that way

[–] ordellrb 14 points 10 months ago (5 children)

buy from the official website, you can select "no operating system" there. (did that last time from Lenovo's site)

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago

They only offer that option for some models. For everything else, you have to select the Windows version with no added cost, and just eat the loss of the baked-in Windows tax.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago

My laptop came preinstalled with Linux :)

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Get a used ThinkPad, OP

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

Here in the EU there are a few companies selling rebranded Tongfang or Clevo barebones without an OS. Some are Linux-oriented like Tuxedo, Slimbook or LaptopmetLinux, some are general-purpose or gaming oriented like Schenker/XMG.

Slimbook Elemental 14 start at around 600€, Tuxedo Aura 14 starts at around 840€ for what looks to be the same SKU but a bit more storage.

Where are you located and what's your budget ? It might help point you in the right direction.

[–] Trincapinones 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

It would be cheaper also

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