this post was submitted on 01 Feb 2024
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  • Ukraine is able to fire just 2,000 shells a day, its defense minister said.
  • That's about a third of what Russia is firing, Rustem Umerov added.
  • In a letter seen by Bloomberg, Umerov urged his EU counterparts to fulfill their ammo commitments.
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[–] [email protected] 43 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (10 children)

If there's one thing NATO needs to immediately address with its own supply chain, much less support for Ukraine, it's that artillery production has been woefully underprioritized.

That Russia alone is outproducing the combined efforts of NATO should have heads rolling in every procurement office in the West.

One estimate put Russian production at 7x that of NATO.

It's fine and dandy to point out that that discrepancy is partly going into air and naval munitions but that's just not an excuse for there not to be parity, much less a reverse in the production gap.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

How do I start an artillery shell manufacturing company? Not how do I make them, how do I get a contract without producing one and how can I start producing them without legal authority? How do I get that authority?

[–] Maalus 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

"how do I start a company making these huge medical robots they use for surgery?" The answer is "you don't". You start off with a small company that does small things. You gain experience. And by the time you get to making an artillery shell, you know what people you need to hire, you have a network of people that probably includes someone in the military procurement. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I still don't see the step where you actually make the shell legally. I am familiar with the procurement labyrinth, but how do I have samples ready when I respond to a request? Where does that authorization come from?

[–] Maalus 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Also, my point still stands - you first make bullets, then move onto weapons. To produce weapons, you need permission and a lot of red tape to cut through. Once you have that done, then you move onto grenades with even more tape. Then when you move onto grenade launchers, etc etc, you already have a wealth of knowledge on how to file every form, what you need to be able to produce it, about safeties.

The answer to your direct question is "I don't know because I don't make artillery". The answer to "how do I make a medical device and have it be legal", about which I know plenty, cannot fit into any number of comments. It's something you do for a number of months, maybe even years. It depends on every country. It depends on the medical device. It depends on the people you have, on the money available. It isn't an answer to a question.

[–] Zirconium -1 points 10 months ago

Too much work. I'm just going to build a giant cannon for Saddam Hussein

[–] Maalus 5 points 10 months ago

Well, look for the info. Every business owner needs to do plenty of research. Just typing into google led me to a barnes & noble book "for dummies" on how to start an artillery business.

[–] SendMePhotos 2 points 10 months ago

Boooorrriiinnnggg!

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think asking randoms on the Internet that question is a great way to star in War Dogs 2

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I really don't think this information is meant to be secret. I can't imagine the US doesn't want more domestic weapon manufacturers vying for their contracts.

Edit: I thought this was a different movie. I haven't seen it, the description is vague... but maybe this is the sequel.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's not that it's a secret, it's that you definitely want the answers from legal professionals and not internet randoms lol

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Yeah... I have already found way better information directly off the DOD website. Still not entirely clear how you get authority for testing though.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

Maybe if certain NATO countries like Germany, Canada, and France listened to Trump, Obama, or Bush and actually put 2% into defense spending it wouldn't be this bad. They are three of the largest economies in NATO, and have been coasting for decades on appropriate spending.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

Why would they need production capacity to produce a product that is useless for the NATO military doctrine? That's just not how NATO countries wage war. Of course they don't have a good production capacity of a tool they are not likely to use. And even if they wanted to start to produce them at the start of the war, it wouldn't be ready today, it takes a lot of time and resources to build production capacity from scratch.

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[–] MeanEYE 21 points 10 months ago (10 children)

Am well aware war is stupidly expensive, but I really can't shake the feeling someone or somemany are skimming quite a bit of these helps and donations. Every now and then we see huge amounts of money given to Ukraine, to a level that is approaching GDP of some countries, and yet there's never enough of anything.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

You can't shoot money as artillery munition, first off you'd need a driver load and then it'll get all messed up. There's not enough shells because the west doesn't have much production capacity and doesn't deliver much, it's as simple as that.

The stuff the US sends is overwhelmingly surplus hardware, kind of hard to make disappear, especially the large stuff. Reporting a rifle as lost to the enemy even though you grabbed it for yourself? Quite easy, but won't work often before people get suspicious. A whole crate? Command will have your ass. Stealing an Abrams? Forget it.

It's the EU who is sending the most of the money and practically bankrolling the Ukrainian state -- their economy isn't exactly in a good place right now, tax revenue is low, and all the tax revenue they have they spend on the war. Thus, the EU is picking up bills for wages of civil servants, pensions, such stuff, to avoid Ukraine having to pay people in flour, onions, sunflower oil and eggs confiscated from farmers. Not good for morale, that kind of war economy.

As to corruption in that area: EPPO has a working agreement with their Ukrainian counterpart, and seem to be very content with it. EPPO is the EU's prosecutor office, investigating and prosecuting crimes against the EU budget, headed by the gal who cleaned up Romania.

Ukraine no doubt has an issue with corruption -- but also a people long fed up with the consequences of it, a government fed up with it, and a war that noone wants to see lost because of it, and a national identity that would like to very much distance itself from terminally corrupt Russia.

[–] Bayz0r 5 points 10 months ago

headed by the gal who cleaned up Romania.

While Kövesi did a bunch of good stuff and got some convictions, Romania is far, far from clean as far as corruption goes.

[–] MeanEYE 3 points 10 months ago

Yeah, I guess that's the case. And I have nothing on that except how it feels, which is a pointless thing to rely on.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

As you said, war is stupidly expensive and Ukraine is defending itself agai at a country many times it's size that has many times it's resources and manpower and still manages to fight them off. I don't believe for a second that there is a lot of skimming going on as everybody in Ukraine knows what will happen if they lose.

[–] MeanEYE 1 points 10 months ago

I have no evidence, of course. Just a feeling, which is a pointless metric. I think none of us really knew how much waging a war costs.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Full speed on the Palestinian genocide as well break our word to the embattled democracy... I'm so proud.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

Yeah but the poor IDF really need US taxpayers help! Heaven forbid it turns into a fair fight! /s

Seriously, though. Hamas is so ridiculously outgunned that I can't imagine any good reason to continue supplying weapons to IDF. If they can't get the job done with what arms have been given then maybe they're not really trying to get the job done at all.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago

I can't help but think of WW1 and the hundreds of thousands of shells used within hours at some battles. truly boggles the mind

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


Ukraine is limited to firing 2,000 artillery shells a day, roughly one-third of Russia's capacity, the country's defense minister, Rustem Umerov, said in a letter seen by Bloomberg.

Writing to his EU counterparts, Umerov urged the bloc to fulfill its commitment of one million artillery shells as Ukraine's capacities are stretched thin across a 930-mile front line, the outlet reported.

As of November, the bloc had sent just 300,000 of the promised ammunition, an unnamed senior EU official told Politico, adding that it will be "very difficult to reach" the total by March.

The US has acknowledged the problem, with Celeste Wallander, the assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs, telling reporters in January that the Pentagon is aware of concerns that Ukraine's armed forces "do not have the stocks and the stores of ammunition that they require."

Martin Herem, commander of Estonia's defense forces, told Bloomberg last week that he believes Russia is now capable of producing several million shells a year.

In December, one soldier told The Times of London that he now declines to target small groups of Russians, considering it not worth the expense in ammunition.


The original article contains 328 words, the summary contains 191 words. Saved 42%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] mightyfoolish 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

It doesn't seem that the Russian people are happy with this war either. I really feel there is an opportunity here to get the Russian people to stab Putin in the back. While I don't understand why Putin has any backers but it's clear so many Russians are suffering as well.

Especially considering how close Ukrainians, Belorussians, and European Russians are to each other in language and culture; you would think they could find some common ground. I know Ukrainians and Russians, losing their families for Putin's cause would be stupid.

[–] Blue_Morpho 4 points 10 months ago

The rich are isolated from the war. It doesn't affect them so supporting Putin is easy. Like the US war in Iraq.

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