this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2023

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Does C# (or any other languages) have an official style guide like python has pep8? (programming.dev)

submitted 11 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] v0rld 44 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Since you specifically mentioned C# : https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/fundamentals/coding-style/coding-conventions

I'd be surprised if there is a serious language that doesn't come with at least some semi-official style guide. But usually they are not universally followed and everybody just does their own thing.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Just to add, I’d argue dotnet has one of the best sets of guidance on style. It goes beyond just naming and towards how to structure code for easier consumption and consistency. People love to dump on MSFT, but the dotnet platform is superb.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

I'd be surprised if there is a serious language that doesn't come with at least some semi-official style guide.

Does JavaScript have one?

Edit: Except google's style guide

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Edit: Except google's style guide

This legit made me laugh lol, Google's style guides for their longer standing languages are always dismissed, especially their one for C++

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

Not sure if they still do it, but Google's python code is some of the ugliest python I've seen and uses 2-space indentation.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

What is wrong with Google's C++ guide?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

To summarize the explanations i've come across: It's tailored to Google's internal teams maintaining tons of legacy C++ code, doesn't cover exception handling, and generally has outdated advice best suited for the code they developed in that time period. While their style guide is ideal for maintaining consistency with Google's existing codebase, someone working on a modern C++ project should consider using the language's more modern features and STL components

Something I'd want to note though, someone developing in C++ for an embedded platform or even working on hardware drivers would probably have very lean and mean code which doesn't conform to a particular style guide, especially ones advising against use of "unsafe" operations.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

Google's, Mozilla's and Apple's style guides are pretty much as official as you're gonna get here.

The 'prettier' formatter is also rather popular and as such its stylistic choices, although that is of course moreso a hammer than a guide.

[–] v0rld 4 points 11 months ago

Is JavaScript a serious language? /s

Joking aside: One of Brendan Eich's books probably contains something resembling a style guide.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Eslint rules and prettier. I use the AirBnB ruleset as a base close to my personal preferences and then customize to my liking.

I don't really have to do any manual formatting. I just save to apply the formatting.

edit: javascript

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Java walks in, whose stdlib uses different styles in the same file.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Rust has a style guide and comes with a linter. But I don't think you need to follow it if you don't want.

[–] beefsack 16 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Rust, like the majority of modern languages, has an official formatter which everyone should be using. Formatters are good enough nowadays that everyone should be using them.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

What other languages have formatter programs?

[–] aaaa 16 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm fond of Go, which comes with its own auto formatter. It eliminates all arguments over style and format.

[–] TootSweet 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Beat me to it. There's plenty to rave about in Go, and that's definitely one of my favorite things.

Also, it's refreshing to actually use tab characters and not two spaces or four spaces or whatever.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I absolutely loathe soft tabs. Hard tabs 4lyfe.

[–] camr_on 4 points 11 months ago

I will never forgive this offense

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If you're using visual studio (2022 is current) the idiomatic styling will be mostly correct by default (Ctrl k,e will reformat).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I've found it to be less strict than I'd prefer. Things like whether parameters are aligned or indented, whether or not the first one is on its own line, what statements are indented in fluent calls that have blocks, etc.

A lot of other formatters (prettier, anything for python, etc) force something consistent in those cases, whereas it seems like the dotnet formatter prefers to leave things as they were.

I'd love for it to be more opinionated and heavy handed if anyone has suggestions

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I've never looked into it very deeply, but it uses a styling spec called EditorConfig. Check it out, https://editorconfig.org/

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

go fmt has been a thing for almost 11 years

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

There's dotnet format which will format your code. You can configure it with editorconfig

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago

For practical advice, I recommend starting a project with dotnet new editorconfig which covers many of the .NET coding conventions. If you want more strict standards you can use StyleCop, but you will need to configure it a bit to be consistent with the .NET conventions.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago

There are a few coding conventions and style guides for C#:

[–] dipshit 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

lots of languages have linters to enforce style. Examples are jslint/eslint phplint, etc..

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

ESLint is not a formatter

[–] dipshit -1 points 10 months ago

ESLint will hurt your feelings.

Anyway, I didn’t setup the tooling, and it can be configured to enforce code styles, as it does with each commit. It also enforces rules, but can enforce code style as well.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Python is unique in formatting forms part of the syntax, every language has linters but its far more common for orgs to tweak the default rules .

For example Java has Checkstyle. The default rules 'sun checks' give a line length of 80, tabs are 4 spaces and everything is placed on a new line.

Junior devs inevitably want to trash the line length (honestly on 1080p monitors, 120 makes sense,).

There is always a new line/same line discussion (everyone perfers same line but there is always one die hard new line person).

The tab width discussion always has one junior dev complain that "tabs are better", as someone who started development on Visual Studio 6 where half the team double spaced, the other half used tabs. Those people get a lecture from me on how we can convert tabs to spaces but not the inverse so it will always be spaces if I am near.

With Checkstyle you upload the rule file as an artifact into your M2 repository. Then you can pull it down as a dependency when the checkstyle plugin runs.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Sort of. Python is a lot more ceremonious about its PEPs or whatever, but there are official naming guidelines for .NET in general at least. The rest of it falls more under the general "this and that is considered 'good' code, this and that is not". You could prefer ancient-style C# or heavily functional C#, there's the SOLID stuff that applies both generally and specifically to OOP, etc

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

For Java, I guess this as official as you can get.

https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/codeconventions-150003.pdf

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

PHP has PSR-1, PSR-2 and now the updated PSR-12: https://www.php-fig.org/psr/psr-12/

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

I refuse to believe that people use a php style guide. I have yet to open a php file in the course of any job that doesn't mix tabs and spaces arbitrarily on top of numerous other horrors.

Luckily it's not often that I have to, so sample size may play in a bit...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

C# has the Microsoft coding standards that are most accepted. PHP has the PSR standards. JavaScript has pretty much nothing and is the Wild West.

Those are the only ones I know about.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

In my experience, they're rarely as strictly enforced as e.g. flake8 does it for Python, but yeah, there is usually some resource suggesting a code style. If all else fails, you can look at some of the code the language authors have written. They'll usually have developed a rather consistent style...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Most languages with "official" formatting guidelines are due to limitations of the compiler/interpreter. Mixing whitespace in Python (or older Fortran) is a great way to error out massively.

For the more modern compiled languages, there is no need. But there still tend to be popular formats from companies like Google

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You say this, but C# does have official code style conventions. It's not about the compiler at all but about ensuring a relatively homogeneous coding style across the ecosystem, so a .NET dev can work on different projects without needing to refamiliarize.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

If indentation and newline policies prevent developers from migrating from one project to another then either your developer suck or your language does.

That said, C# is somewhat special in that it is both a language and a corporate flag by Microsoft. Similar to how Google pushes to have their style guides made public so that other projects will adopt them. Which has less to do about making it so that one developer can bounce between projects (because they should be able to anyway) but to instead push Google as the goal everyone aspires to and emulates.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

This is about thew new starter cost.

When a developer joins a team, they will not be as productive as they have to learn the code, frameworks, libraries, the project purpose, the tooling, etc.. Often this impacts other members of the team lowering the entire teams productivity.

When you use productivity tracking (e.g. things like capacity planning) you will see the teams performance drop and it will take time for it to exceed the previous measured performance. This is the cost of adding a new starter.

So if it takes 6 weeks for a new starter to increase overall team producitivty then planning someone on a project for 4 weeks is pointless since the team will have a higher delivery rate without the extra person. This is typically why an organsation loses its ability to migrate staff between projects.

Code formating affects the layout of the code and our brains do all sorts of tricks around pattern recognition, so if your code formatting rules are too different a someone migrating between projects has to spend time looking for code and retraining their brain.

Its an additional barrier and a one within an organisations skills to remove (by forcing a common code standard).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Tools and frameworks do indeed take time to come up to speed on. That is onboarding and training

Code formatting should not. If it is taking new developers any meaningful degree of time to adapt to a new style then, again, either your developer or your style sucks. The time it takes to ping HR because they never sent you a document is a much bigger delay than anything else.

And, the very nature of coming up to speed on a code base ensures you figure out any quirks. Because you aren't making a 10 thousand line pull request on your first day. You are doing something small. So you can get your editor set up to automate most of that and the rest you figure out while going through code review/linting/pre-commit.

So yes, different coding styles will result in minor fluctuations on your "productivity tracking" software. So does having a chair where the reclining lock is in a different position or remembering where the coffee machine is. And if you are at the point where you are optimizing having your developers learn the preferred structure for an if block? You have already won and have the most optimized organization on the planet.

But the reality is that this is the kind of thing that bean counters who use productivity trackers get off on. It allows managers to quantify their employees without ever having to understand what they are doing. And it similarly provides a quantifiable way to say "I improved efficiency by 4% relative to some baseline I cherry picked from the day after a long weekend. Money please!". Often at the cost of annoying their staff and decreasing the time before people update their linkedins.

Fun story/group therapy time! Couple years back I was on a project where the lead was a REAL moron. Got the job because he was married to the head of a different department and threatened to leave if he didn't have opportunities for career advancement, etc. Anywho, he insisted we all needed to switch to a "more efficient" coding style (I don't think it was the google style guide, but one of the popular ones). Took a whole day off of development so we could sit through presentations and do exercises on the benefits of this style while also, obviously, not having time to just set up the pre-commit hooks to automate the migration.

But I was actually in the final days before taking leadership on a different project (which made handing off responsibilities a real pain in the ass but...). And he presented on how amazing the improvements were during one of the project leads meetings. I want to say he measured something like a 30% improvement in SLOC per day which set my BS alarm off massively. Fortunately, as a lead, I now had access to the tools used to collect those metrics. He chose the day where nobody was allowed to code for about 6 hours straight because we were learning about the new system as his baseline. And still only had a 30% gain...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

There's a lot more than indentation and newline policies. The default editorconfig is a few hundred lines. But there's also no reason not to standardize indentation and newline policies.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Standardizing within a project or even a company is important.

Standardizing across an industry or language is not

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Feel free to point out a disadvantage. As a .NET dev I appreciate the semblance of consistency. Different codebases differ enough already, it's just easier on the eyes when everyone is using the same basic conventions.