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Social Media's Cringiest Conservative Is Running for School Board -- As a Democrat
(www.rollingstone.com)
this post was submitted on 16 Feb 2024
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politics
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Homeschooling is child abuse, in the majority of cases. Kids need to interact with other kids, and be taught by people who are trained to do it effectively with curriculum that isn’t based on the invisible man in the sky’s alleged preferences.
haha no it isn't, don't be absurd about topics for which you only scratch the surface in knowing anything about. Please further don't pretend you're a child psychologist who has the end-all interpretation of understanding what children need.
You refer to homeschooling in stereotypes as though every homeschooled household is the Turpin family. Your frame of reference is squarely based on on the worst offenders that hit the news headlines. Yet throughout university you probably didn't realize there were many of us in your classes who socialized just fine and aced classes in a variety of difficult majors.
You stereotype homeschooling from these outliers; such pointing to worst offenders is like if I were to point out the prevalence of school shooters and teen suicides public schooling produces and the associated risks and blanketing that as a reason to not go to public-school. It's almost like there's a bit more nuance than you lend credence. I'll even be willing to submit cons that should be addressed and considered before anyone else considers for themselves.
So if you're really interested in extending this beyond your shallow understanding, then please, let's engage in this wholeheartedly and I can provide with both reason and evidence precisely why you're incorrect. You miss a wide variety of benefits from homeschooling that I'd be happy to walk you through if you are genuinely interested in going beyond mere stereotypes.
For starters, please separate religious fundamentalism from the act of schooling; these are two separate things and secular homeschoolers like us who believe in science and quality education exist.
Signed, a homeschooled person now in his 30s who excelled in a STEM field and is now married with 2 kids to a publicly-schooled wife who agrees with the merits of homeschooling.
Why are you writing like you're attempting to sound smart? Anyway, for someone who "excelled" in college, you provide surprisingly little substance in your argument. So I'll gently call you out: Convince us you're not just basing your entire argument off of personal experience.
Now I'm not saying I'm on either side. I've heard reports from both ends of that spectrum. So, lennybird, which side should we accept more strongly?
The top level comment literally provides zero substance. Why didn't you call it out?
Substance wasn't really my focus. We all have the capacity to look things up ourselves. How the other user said it, the snarkiness and better-than-thou feel, it felt like a bit much. I'm all for opinions, they get conversations going and usually someone learns something or at least has a good time. You're right though, I should have asked for the same from the original comment and not gotten stuck on the one.
Have an upvote, I deserve the call out here.
My god, man.
The double-standard is palpable. So I'm "snarky," but you're a liar.
I matched snarkiness with snarkiness; the previous user literally called what I went through and what I do for my kids "child abuse" and you don't fucking object to that? I'm not supposed to get passionate about that? Should I have written more typos, kissed their ass more? What would've received your blessing, exactly?
Give me a fucking break and grow up.
Tell me, what exactly did I write that makes me, "sound smart"? Please, be detailed. Is that your own insecurity talking? I've written many comments like this on other subjects, but isn't it funny how it's this specific subject-matter that makes people so often attack my character. Isn't that more of a reflection on you? Let's just start here before proceeding further.
For calling me out on little substance, it's curious that both (1) You haven't given any support to the opposite conclusion whatsoever, and (2) have only lightly cherry-picked at what you perceive as being low-hanging fruit without really countering anything, or even offering genuine questions of inquiry.
You're deflecting, just like you have in other replies I've seen. Substance. You have the proof, right? It's important, so share with the class.
They were home schooled. They don't know what that means.
Damn. You're kind of an asshole, aren't you? Mother must be proud, huh buddy?
Did you learn bullying and ganging up on people in school, too?
Ironically, yeah, sort of.
Learning to read the room and make jokes (sometimes at other's expense) is certainly something you learn from frequently socializing outside of your immediate circle.
Something that your extreme touchiness in this thread highlights. You're in an internet forum taking an aggressive stance on something unpopular, and repeatedly whine that other's aren't held to the same expectations.
You stood on the hill to die. You chose that. You homeschooling mommy and daddy can't insulate you when you leave your safe space.
And yes, that last snark was bullying. I couldn't help myself.
Ah yes, the tragedy of identifying cognitive bias and desiring "same expectations."
How very wrong and terrible of me, lol.
But yes, please keep putting doubling-down on your own ignorance and ego above learning.
That I'm nothing like you is something I am quite proud of, so I guess I'll leave it there.
How am I deflecting? Is this projection? You're deflecting, actually. Again, do tell me where I attempt to "sound smart."
Just gave it to the other user. Feel free to read.
Nothing. Trying to, like they said? Plenty.
Oh really? Like where?
Edit: Just as I suspected. Low-blow cheapshot snarkiness;... But nothing in the way of substance.
Are you basing this rant on your personal (anecdotal) experience of it working out for you, or actual statistics?
What statistics are you looking for? I do have statistics supporting the fact that homeschoolers as a general population outperform the average public schooler, academically (which is certainly one major argument of the previous user's concerns when referring to quality teachers).
And of course it goes both ways. I'm curious if those critical of homeschooling are using any sort of statistics to support their arguments as opposed to equivalent anecdotes and skewed perceptions based on news headlines.
Also, just curious: do you view the previous user's response to me a "rant" as well?
Put'em up. Got statistics? Show statistics. I don't care one whit about this argument (I homeschool my kid because I don't want him to get shot), but if you say your allegation is supported by evidence, provide the evidence. Which ones?: Yes. Let's see'em.
Isn't it amusing that nobody down-voted the user who replied to me attacking homeschooling, literally blanket calling everyone who engages in it child abuse without any merit and giving zero credible evidence or statistics, themselves?
I wonder, are you going to ask them for statistics?
And sure; merely a google search away:
https://www.thinkimpact.com/homeschooling-statistics/#:~:text=The%20average%20performance%20of%20homeschoolers,for%20students%20from%20public%20schools.
https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/
Edit: See? Down-voted for literally giving sources while zero has been given as a counter-argument in return and literally not one substantive counter-point or even an acceptance to have an honest conversation so far. Just ad hominems against me and anonymous dissent.
(If this is true that's very alarming) But a few lines later it reads:
There are plenty of other examples of contradicting statistics and strange grammar on this page, it makes me feel like it was written by someone homeschooled...
Considering there are kids who've gone through high school and done it in a third of the time or less, I seriously question how many substantive hours of engaged learning is actually occurring. Quality (and with it, engagement), not just quantity is all that matters. At the end of the day, isn't it more concerning to you that such amount of time is sufficient to outperform the average public schooler?
Edit: Moreover have you considered the fact that there is a 1:1 teacher ratio, and a teacher who has an invested interested in seeing their own child succeed? That the learning environment can be adapted according to that child's needs? That there is literally the aggregate of all human knowledge and online learning programs and homeschool co-ops and that homeschooled kids can utilize public school facilities and even join sports teams? Shit, I did theater....
Most critics don't. They only see the ones that make the news or people that "act" differently to them.
But is it 72% learn for 5 hours a week or 50% learn for 25-40 hours? Both can't be true.
Having a student teacher ratio 10x-20x greater than public schools one would hope that homeschoolers drastically outperform public school students, rather than just have marginally better academics. It's also worth considering that many families can't afford to have a parent teaching instead of working.
In my state, there are no reporting or testing requirements, and parents themselves issue highschool diplomas for their kids. With such lax rules in most states, how trustworthy can surveys even be about the academic performance of homeschoolers?
That's a fair point and without delving into which source this comes from in the article, my guess is they meant to say, "72% learn for at least 5 hours a week while 50% learn for 25-40".
But yeah that's fair. As I wrote from the start homeschooling is not without its downsides and definitely circumstantial. For example, if both parents are working full-time jobs, then it's probably not feasible in most cases. Either way, the general data does conclude that outcomes are better, which ultimately is all that really matters for the sake of this discussion.
In the state I lived most of my childhood, we had to do standardized testing like public schooled kids, and in addition be evaluated every end of year by a certified teacher who reviewed our learning materials (an end-of-year portfolio, basically).
In my later years, we moved to a state that like you mentioned has minimal requirements. This can of course be abused but also be a blessing under certain circumstances where an education be adapted to unique life situations.
Well your second link can't be trusted because it's from a biased source. Literally paid research by the home education group.
The first one is interesting in that it seems to be a hirable think tank. But, does at least seem to be pulling data from sources.
Now you did in fact supply sources more than the people you are arguing against but you started with emotional responses and then angrily stated that you provided resources elsewhere which isn't a great look and will build bias against you. So now you are facing a losing argument to pivot to "facts" late and with bias just makes it really hard to take your side seriously at this point.
Take a step back and let it go or start over. And know starting over is also gonna be uphill with the hole that's been dug. Sorry man. Humans are emotional at their core. All of us.
While I can understand taking with a grain of salt on a level of trust, the fact is, I've provided evidence and nobody here has been able to provide a modicum of evidence to the contrary yet. I appreciate your recognition of this. I think it's also worth pointing out that being biased does not preclude being right (e.g., a climate scientist could be considered "biased" on their case for climate change; but their evidence still strong.)
To be clear, I feel I responded to that user with an assertive, passionate response that was proportionate to the amount of substance and emotion they put into their own comments. I question if you gave a second look at what they actually wrote, what evidence they provided, and what "emotion" they brought to the table. I freely admit I'm passionate about this; but I also know for a fact that I know more on this subject-matter than any individual here that has replied to me. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but it's frustrating when you see the same tropes play out over and over again. As you can imagine, this isn't my first discussion on this topic.
So in the end I ask: to How should I have responded that would satisfy you and meet the equivalent level of detail the user I replied to gave (and was up-voted)?
Lmfao I love that your argument for home schooling includes talking down on someone's intelligence for not being qualified to speak on child psychology. Yet you're advocating that people that aren't qualified should be allowed to teach their kids and don't yourself have a degree relating to the field
My guy, the dude literally called it child abuse without any evidence or position of expertise whatsoever. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you can point to me where homeschooling is classified as child abuse under any major regulatory body or psychology association, I'll eat my words.
There is evidence that homeschooling yields more effective outcomes, so while your response is cute and snarky, it isn't really grounded in anything substantive. One would know this if they actually knew anything about homeschooling.
Fuck it. Since nobody seems to care about hyperbole I'll just call public schooling child abuse. After all, I'd bet money that even after factoring proportionality more suicides and homicides occur as a direct result of public schooling.
I’m just looking at nces statistics, specifically the percentage of parents that homeschool for moral or religious reasons, and drawing conclusions that may very well be bullshit. Glad it worked out for you, but I can’t help but feel sorry for kids I’ve known who would have benefited from a secular education. It’s pretty embarrassing to explain evolution to a twentysomething.
I confess I was a bit triggered by calling it child abuse in blanket terms, so I thank you for this comment. It's not suitable for everyone and yes, absolutely religious fundamentalism is a major issue. It just sucks for secular parents like us to be under that umbrella generalization. I suspect if one could partition data between secular and religious homeschooled groups there would be a pretty stark contrast in performance and objective life satisfaction.
Sounds like a low-punch cop-out to me, buddy. Come back when you have something substantive to say.
People have a very shallow understanding of a subject that I know much more about because I've lived it. Sorry if I'm passionate because these shallow negative stereotypes impact me and many others.
Buddy, if any of these are big words to you, then perhaps that public school education isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Otherwise, do tell if I'm misusing any words, alright? Let's go one-by-one and discuss. But isn't it absolutely remarkable that you have to commit an entire paragraph to make an Ad Hominem attack against me? To nitpick by fucking diction of all things...? With that Masters degree I guess I'd at least expect witty brevity.
Can't win with you folks... If I let loose my Appalachian roots you'd call me simpleminded and my vocabulary weak and a result of my homeschooled education; if on the other hand I respond with a tight comment that predicts arguments, you get defensive that I'm holier-than-thou and condescending. The bottom-line is you're looking for shit, obviously.
Please read the previous user's comment. They literally called what I went through and what I do for my kids, "child abuse." Fucking absurd. As you can imagine this isn't my first rodeo and I kind of figured what I was getting into making such a statement.
That you tell me to calm down as you decide to comment in a filled thread from hours ago just speaks to your own lack of introspection (is that a "thesaurus" word for you, too?)
Honestly, I'm just looking for good debate. I think most people here are far more worked up than I am. I just know how to fight fire with fire and some of you seem to take issue with that.
By the way, evidence was provided below. At this point, nobody gave evidence -- so why am I held to a higher standard than the dude who called it child abuse? lol.
I've yet to hear exactly what was so controversial about my initial response to a comment that literally generalized child abuse across all of homeschooling... Again, where is your outrage over that? Where are you interrogating them for sources? I matched aggression at every point in these threads. Where you see those sources linked, I held a reasonable conversation with far less aggression -- did I not? You see it goes both ways.
Truly. I genuinely wish you could just reach your hand out and other users would reach a hand back out and we'd sing Kumbaya. In my experience that just doesn't work and you just get rolled over. I had to be assertive to dispel any notion of the original argument -- for which has not in conceivable way been addressed. In other words, this massive pivot to attack my character or how I said something is a clear deflection to the actual substance of the topic at hand.
I'll treat anyone with the utmost respect if they bestow the same to me. Otherwise, I'm dishing it right back at you. So to be clear, the insults directed at me have fundamentally dwarfed anything I've said beforehand.
Should be noted that the original user who made that comment finally responded and we generally saw eye-to-eye.
Fairest comment yet, and I recognize your attempt to rein the conversation back in — so thank you for that.
Well honestly, I think this is for better or worse just how I write. Feel free to look through my comment history but I didn't consciously go out of my way to write differently here any more than elsewhere except for maybe dot my i's and cross my t's a little more tightly, knowing that any low-hanging fruit I leave behind will be cannon-fodder for an attack against me (too dumb; too arrogant, etc.).
I enjoy a healthy written discussion. What really gets under my nerves are insincere double-standards when people are reading these threads.. When you write from a position of the minority, knowing what you're writing is unpopular but still have strong convictions about it, you recognize the uphill battle that is going against ingrained beliefs and bandwagon/ad-populum fallacies. I'm fully aware one should be on their best behavior when in these situations, but it can be difficult to maintain perfect composure when you're taking blows left and right and anonymous down-votes despite any substantive response to the points being presented. I just wish people cut me a little more slack when the user basically said I suffered child abuse and am committing child abuse to my kids without merit. I suspect most here wouldn't maintain composure either under such audacious claims.
I had the sources from the start but I figured (a) The initial user made an outlandish claim, didn't back it up, and nobody interrogated them for evidence, and (b) even when you provide sources against people who want to believe otherwise, they often just dismiss them outright or cherry-pick relentlessly. But duly noted that I should maybe just lead with that next time.
Ignore them. Some kids just do better homeschooled and it's the lesser of evils, either you sacrifice the benefit they get from socializing or you sacrifice how they do in school because they can't handle being around people like that.
I'm sure I'll get downvoted here too but fuck em. Way too many people are so full of themselves they think they know more about a situation than those who have or are living it.
To be fair though, the majority of homeschooled kids are likely being kept home and forced to learn some religious bullshit and the only socializing they get is with other religious nutjobs doing the same to their kids. Not saying that was your situation, just a statement of fact.
The most sensible comment yet, thank you.
I've mentioned in another comment or two the same thing: Obviously religious fundamentalism is a major problem. But that's its own problem, not homeschooling.
My upbringing was a little unique in that regard. I was raised in a Christian household but we weren't evangelical, really. By the time I reached my teens my entire family kind of went through a paradigm shift for various reasons away from religion and conservatism and went full-blown progressive-left. Some of that is thanks to the internet; some of that is thanks to my parents' reflection of the US invasion of Iraq and its parallels to the Vietnam War and their hippie days.
Either way I definitely don't see homeschooling as fitting the circumstances of every family, and it certainly has its cons that need addressed as well. For my kids (and with my wife's AP/Honors public school perspective) we think we can do better for our kids.