this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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[–] MCk3 63 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

You said there’s nuance but then went on to explain that there isn’t nuance and the only reasonable vote is for Biden. And you’re not wrong. There are a lot of folks pretending to be on the left acting like there’s a whole lot of nuance here, and that voting for someone other than Biden, or not voting at all, is an acceptable option.

None of this precludes advocating for your positions or doing other praxis, but when it comes to voting the answer is clear

[–] [email protected] 25 points 10 months ago (3 children)

There's nuance, because leftists saying voting isn't going to change anything meaningfully as far as moving towards the left is still true.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (3 children)

That is true, but not voting or casting a protest vote right now ensures fascism, under which there will be literally no choice at all.

At least under a democracy there are chances to improve things, like replacing FPTP with a better voting system that will actually allow the left a seat at the table. That’s already happening in some places and there’s a movement (supported by democrats and vehemently opposed by republicans) to enact alternative voting methods.

Unfortunately there’s been so much apathy for decades that the fascists have got their foot solidly in the door. There was nuance years ago, but we squandered it. There’s little point debating left vs liberal when fascism has taken hold. That must be stopped first.

There’s no such thing as moral neutrality in this environment, and as much as it sucks, not voting against fascism is the same as voting for fascism.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Hence my original point, leftists must vote for liberals, even if it isn't ever going to improve the system, and must work themselves to build up leftist structures without hoping for help from liberals. If they don't vote, then fascists take power, and leftists lose the chance to build leftist structures at all.

I do think you're too hopeful that a 2 party Capitalist state designed to change as little as possible would meaningfully improve from within, rather than under pressure from without, but it would be great if you were right about that.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I’m not that hopeful that the left can change the system from within, to be honest, I’m just certain it’s too late to think about that because under fascist rule, not only will things not improve, but many of us will face genocide.

The time for leftist change was 20 years ago, or with any luck, 8 or so years from now after the fascist threat has been quashed. Right now we have to think about unifying like it’s 1932.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

Only thing I disagree with is the idea that leftist change was more possible 20 years ago, Capitalism's instability and inherent structural flaws only make themselves more apparent and severe as time goes on, and with that comes potential for change. The left is larger than ever before, and is constantly growing.

[–] voidMainVoid 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

That’s already happening in some places and there’s a movement (supported by democrats and vehemently opposed by republicans) to enact alternative voting methods.

Where? And who in the DNC supports this?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Here.

And here’s one resource to support it. There are many others, both local and national.

eta: I’m on mobile so searching and linking is hard, but you can find people running for office who support these efforts by googling the office (senator, mayor, or whatever) and ‘free vote initiative’ or some synonyms. There are some (mostly local) republicans, substantially more democrats, and a huge majority of 3rd party candidates for obvious reasons).

I strongly recommend bringing it up with your representatives. 3rd party and democrats have been teaming up for this, and republicans have been fighting it because FPTP greatly benefits them and they know it.

[–] Ensign_Crab 3 points 10 months ago

Unfortunately there’s been so much apathy for decades that the fascists have got their foot solidly in the door.

That apathy has been earned.

[–] PopOfAfrica 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I just don't know why the Onus is never on Joe Biden himself. Why is it that we feel like he doesn't have to earn any votes at all?

"Am I so out of touch? No, it's the voters who are wrong."

[–] voidMainVoid 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

"Am I so out of touch? No, it's the voters who are wrong."

No, it's more like "LOL you have to vote for me, or the fascist will win". Democrats love opponents like Trump, because he helps them fundraise like crazy.

[–] Ensign_Crab 5 points 10 months ago

It also means they don't have to do shit but be second worst to a literal fascist. And it's disgusting how comfortable they are in such a position.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The onus isn't on him because voting for him is for our benefit, not his.

[–] Ensign_Crab 2 points 10 months ago

The onus isn’t on him because voting for him is for our benefit

It's to our lesser detriment. There's a difference.