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IDF: We supplied 300 liters of fuel to Shifa, Hamas barred hospital from getting it
(www.timesofisrael.com)
this post was submitted on 12 Nov 2023
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Interesting question.
Apparently an ICU bed requires ~200 W of power.
I don't know the type of fuel or generator, but I found an arbitrary model that can output 1800W, enough for 9 ICU beds. Four liters of gasoline provide 5400Wh, which means they lasts 3 hrs.
So I estimate 300 liters of gasoline could have powered 9 ICU beds for over nine days.
Oh cool, wonder how many ICU beds they have to power. I wonder what other equipment they need.
In any case that's a pittance. I could've provided more personally. A country-like entity could certainly do much better, like maybe just suppling power and not bombing their power infrastructure.
I don't know how many ICU beds they have to power, but Shifa Hospital has 30 ICU beds in all.
So if all the ICU beds are occupied, then 300 liters of gasoline would power them for two to three days.
The hospital needs 9000-10000 liters a day of fuel. Do you think there is a single power generator connected to the neonatal unit? How are they going to limit the consumption? It's not really that easy and I bet most of the electricians also left the hospital... Your napkin math is also not taking into account any power losses, etc.
Plus offering 300 liters is laughable. Seriously, your car's fuel tank is 60+ liters, so Israel offered them 5 car tanks worth of fuel. How generous and humane of them!
Someone asked what 300 L of fuel could do for a hospital, and I estimated an answer.
Nobody said it would be sufficient to power an entire hospital. It could power a full ICU, which is usually where the patients at greatest risk are found, for 2-3 days.
It doesn't matter how many power generators are used, the energy requirements are the same. The hospital is already using power generators, so electricians are irrelevant.
Tell me you are not an engineer without telling me.
Seriously, stop spreading this nonsense, as you have no idea how to calculate fuel consumption of a diesel generator. Have you heard of a parameter called power factor? Or electrical losses? Do you know how to operate a diesel generator or how to disconnect all other power consuming devices from the diesel generator?
Another food for thought for you is that this power generator is probably huge, and is not designed to consume very little fuel, meaning the power factor is low around his originally designed power output and the further away you are from it, the lower the power factor is, the greater the losses.
You said you have worked in a hospital, but answer me a question, how many times have you touched the diesel generator there or any part of the electrical system of the hospital and do you feel confident enough to do any changes on it? And be honest!
Are you assuming there is a large, central generator operating to supply the entire hospital? If that is the case, then I agree that it would be very difficult for a small fuel supply to be used effectively.
But I'm assuming that such a generator would be destroyed or otherwise not in use. And that small fuel shipments would be delivered to portable generators at critical locations (like an ICU) in order to triage power use.
As before, if you have a better estimate that includes any factors I've omitted, then I would love to see it. I'm simply not satisfied by previous low-effort estimates, such as comparing 300 L to an automobile fuel tank.
The truth is that we both are currently guesstimating, but you are simplifying a lot of the unknowns I am pretty sure things aren't that easy. Plus those generators are usually handled by trained technicians who most likely left the hospital long ago.
Plus you didn't answer my question about your knowledge of diesel generators, how many times have you operated one? And are you feeling confident that you can operate one?
Again, I'm talking about portable gasoline generators, since I doubt the hospital has a working main generator.
You don't need a trained technician to run a portable generator. I'm perfectly capable of operating my 2000 W unit, which is currently sitting in my garage.
Otherwise, yes of course I'm estimating. A rough estimate is better than no estimate. When a better estimate becomes available, throw out the previous one.
So then why don't you go there, pick up the fuel in an active war zone, connect the generator and connect the incubators to it. Seriously you are considerably downplaying the complexity of this. It is all good and easy when you are comfortably sitting on your couch.
Because if the statements by the IDF are true (there is little solid evidence but it'd be in line with what we know about Hamas' behavior), there is an obstacle in the way that isn't the IDF, too little fuel, or a technical problem.
You estimated an answer based on wrong input data and no expertise in the matter. You made a guess and set yourself up as "the expert that knows how much fuel it is". Now you continue spreading misinformation. It's not how it works, stop trying to give your opinion about things you know nothing about.
I estimated an answer based on the available data, and never cast myself as an expert.
Like any estimate, it is associated with error. But even with error, it is better than meaningless criticism like "That can't be right", truthiness like "a couple of hours??", or politically motivated reasoning like "If IDF is associated with this, then it must be completely useless".
If you want to try to make a better estimate based on better data, be my guest.
No, you took data straight from the source - you made it the fuck up. You are spreading misinformation.
No, I won't repeat your mistake by guesstimating how much fuel does a hospital I have never seen needs on a daily basis.
No, it is not better than what you mention, because it is simply false. And a person reading your post will come to a false conclusion. So either you have an interest in spreading bullcrap, or you do it because you believe you are right. Both of which are concerning.
If you can't estimate what a hospital requires, then why would you assume 300L of fuel is insufficient?
The original poster concluded it was insufficient by comparing it to an automobile fuel tank. Which is ridiculous. If you actually think that's a logical comparison, then you're just looking for someone to confirm your biases.
No you make up some insane bullshit. I worked in a hospital.
So do I.
Then you know you can't just power a bed in a vacuum..
I know that the difference between an ICU bed and a floor bed has more to do with nursing ratios than equipment. But nurses don't run on gasoline.
People supposed to work in the dark? ICU is inside the building. You going to run extension cords down the hallway? (Lol). What about a/c hard to live when temp spikes to 120f. I could go on but it's already clear you're going to die on this impossible hill.
Let's not forget ICU patients tend to need blood work, radiology exams, medications, etc.... you know the little things.
And buildings have windows... At this point they've likely ran out of electricity and are currently making do with literally nothing. So some fuel to run equipment is literally better than literally nothing.
The fuck? https://www.accuweather.com/en/ps/gaza/258096/daily-weather-forecast/258096
Where are you seeing that? In this current age of the internet where you can know the weather all over the world accurately to the degree... Why are you supposing something so far out of the realm of reality? Is it because you're arguing in bad faith?
Which they currently have 0 of... Gee golly wish there was some fuel to power those things! Even if it was just one fuel load!
And you probably will... but your forte is clearly not in logic or sense.
"How are they going to limit consumption" really? Turn off breakers, pull plugs, turn off switches, have an electrician measure, whack everyone who uses power for anything but the absolutely most life critical applications with a large stick...
I've worked in a hospital. During my time there we had a true blackout. Even the central power generator couldn't turn on, because the connection was chewed through my rats. No one did a check on it like they're supposed to every month...heads rolled for it.
Here to say, you can't just power ICU beds in isolation. The circuits for emergency power aren't just going to beds. They're open sockets on the wall, any one can plug anything in there. You can't just redo a circuit in the blink of an eye either. If their central generator died and they get a bunch of gas powered ones, they'll need a lot of time to figure out where they need to splice the wires in order to supply power but not overwhelm the generators.
It's safe to say they're probably going to use their large central generator. It's probably also safe to say they're going to power more than the ICU beds. Even if they turned off the heating and cooling, they're still going to use more than the figure you suggested. Some circuits aren't optional.
I am incredibly skeptical of this story, but holy shit this is one of the funniest things I have seen on this site.
Again, I am incredibly skeptical of this story. But I REALLY hope it is true. Mostly because it is a sign of any form of humanity in an inhumane genocide. But partly to see your next act of mental gymnastics. Like, fuck Cirque du Soleil, this is where it is at.
You're quite right, some people just cannot see past their biases.
And Hamas taking it for themselves is perfectly believable.
The math is COMPLETE bullshit. Their power estimates are a farce and off by probably a factor of 10... There are other things then just the bed...
Citation needed.
What piece of ICU equipment do you think has a power draw over 1kW? That's more than a refrigerator....
The link adds up the power for a ventilator, two monitors, and eight pumps.
What would you like to add?
I mean... you generally want refrigerators for a lot of medicine (and I assume blood?).
But I also assume those are already fucked from the past few weeks.
You aren't going to be running at full capacity without providing power to the entire grid which has obvious implications with a war. But keeping the essential equipment running to keep kids and the like alive? I am not convinced they would be able to help everyone, but it would go a long way and be something that can be delivered with minimal risk of attacks en route and storage issues.
I never said the fuel is enough help everyone in the hospital. Far from it.
It is enough to power a certain number of ICU beds, for a few days, that would otherwise not be operational. That's not much, but it's not nothing.
Where's the mental gymnastics? My initial point is that it's NOTHING in terms of aid.
And the numbers given are dubious presumptions that assume modern, well kept, thousand dollar generators with modern ICU beds and no other equipment or auxiliary usage. It's not useful or realistic.
Hey, you asked and they answered. It's probably a few days of fuel for absolutely mission critical applications, but it's definitely something.
Sigh. You were doing so well but now you are just down to "fake news, fake news".
So some anonymous person on the internet did a couple of web searches and some back of the napkin simple multiplication, and suddenly for you that becomes the last word on the subject?
There is a fuckload more in a hospital that needs power in addition to an ICU bed. We don’t know what generators they’re using, the fuel consumed per hour, and how far a minimum power draw can go. We do know that the hospitals are so far over capacity that patients are everyplace, as are people seeking shelter.
It is fuck all for a single hospital.
I don't know how hospital power systems are designed. maybe it's possible that you could only power infant icus. I doubt it. either the hospital has power or it doesn't. at least that's what I would expect. so it's not a matter of whether you're just powering icu's. also fuck israel.
Hospitals have lots of built-in safety and redundancy in their power systems, but ultimately most things draw power from an outlet just like at home.
And that means most ICU equipment could be plugged into a generator, if necessary. There are a few hospital-wide systems that might need to be replaced with portable units, like vacuum suction and oxygen lines.
Obviously that's not ideal in terms of reliability, but it's better than turning the life support off. In fact, it is pretty clear that hospitals in Gaza are using generators right now to power their equipment.
so.... is the offered fuel "enough"? like I said: I don't know much about electrical infrastructure. but I don't think you need to know anything about it to believe that hospitals shouldn't lose power for any patient, ICU babies or otherwise.
Enough for the hospital to function normally? I really, really doubt it.
Enough to save some lives, if not nearly all? I think so.
By the way, everything I said about ICUs was referring to adult ICUs, not neonatal. So I have no idea if the fuel is enough to help ICU babies.
Enough to prove viability for fuel delivery? Yes.