this post was submitted on 25 Jun 2023
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Good. It is important to have different instances to distribute the load though. However, I hope there are not many people joining BeeHaw...
I don't hope that, exactly, I just hope that the people who join understand what they're getting (and, more importantly, what they aren't). I fully support a community with a different goal than most, and their goal seems like a wholesome one. I personally think it's doomed to failure, but I support them giving it a try. They're barely part of the fediverse though.
I agree. That's the point of having different instances. Some of the original Lemmy instances had a very specific worldview and didn't want to hear much else. I'd prefer they stay there to live in their echo chamber and I leave them alone, than they come out and start demanding the rest of us bow to their authority.
The broader fediverse sort of works that way. There's a fediverse that's really locked down, the sort of in between, and there's the wild west, and the three coexist in different ways. I can disagree with them, but it's their sandbox and I have mine and in that way we can coexist on the same platform
Perfectly put.
As an aside, I feel like this was the situation in the early formation of the US. Different communities and different states had different views about what should be illegal, but they all wanted the freedom to pursue their individual ways of life. There were basic tenants that everyone generally agreed to, but we created a paradigm where states could do different things, and you could move freely between them to trade and interact.
I feel like people have lost sight of that. Too many want to legislate their view of how people should live - to force everyone to live that way - instead of all of us during l supporting the right of others to do something different within those broader societal bounds.
There still some good instances that Beehaw is federated with, but my personal issue is that it feels very fragile. If a couple of bigots show up on other instances and the mods don't delete their posts right away, will Beehaw defederate from them? There is a line between protecting your users and barring them from accessing anything you don't approve of, and I think they need to figure out where they stand in regards to that line. Beehaw feels more like a small forum than a piece of something bigger.
Defederating because of raiding, harassment, bots, etc is 100% understandable but it should not be done lightly.
I agree with you. And, honestly, I don't think they did it lightly after reading their post about it. It's just that they're dedicated to creating a safe space for their members, and they couldn't figure out how to do that with the mod tools they have and the influx of trolls from the open instances.
Looks like beehaw.org is shedding users. They've lost about a thousand users since defederating from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works last week. Maybe a bunch of people weren't happy with that move.
They’re probably ok with that
Oh. I think I maybe figured out why my subscriptions to beehaw communities are still pending.
Dang it. Am I really going to have to write a thoughtful essay to get an account there? I hate writing. Thoughtfully, anyhow.
You could also register with another instance that hasn’t defederated with them.
dbzer0 looks like the best lemmy.world alternative to me. but with how beehaws mods are acting I couldn't care less about trying to access it
Why not beehaw? Did something happen?
They've defederated from both lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. They're still a good community, but I don't consider them part of the fediverse at this point.
They defederated with the some of the largest instances that have open registration due to the influx of people causing issues in their own communities and the lack of mod tools to address the issue. People are still pissy about it despite beehaw admins stating they will lift the defederation once lemmy mod tools improve…
They kept saying that they need more moderation tools. Does anyone know what they wanted that Lemmy doesn’t already offer?
A big one is probably mods being able to mark posts as nsfw, ability to set posting restrictions for users with new accounts, less buggy mod queue. As of right now it’s not really feasible for a small team to moderate a large community on lemmy. There was a multitude of tools on Reddit that existed that made larger communities run smoothly, nearly all of which just don’t exist here yet. Just general growing pains of a new platform I think.
True, but even a “large” beehaw community is small by Reddit’s standards. Couldn’t they just appoint more moderators? Lemmy allows mods to create more mods for a community.
I think the biggest issue they had highlighted (that I witnessed myself, unfortunately) mainly was people with clear bad faith intentions entering beehaw's spaces designated for discussions of and about vulnerable communities and individuals that beehaw wants to make sure to protect as part of their community ethos. Discussions that were calm and respectful and didn't devolve into chaos previously due to the barrier blocks in their community quickly fell apart due to large swaths of users who were able to enter the community without any barriers that would have been stopped quickly if they had tried to sign up to beehaw. Like, a lot of it was really was the lack of post restrictions within their local communities. An example off the top of my head, beehaw requires you to fill out a form to basically make sure you are wanting to join in line with their community policies. For those that get the false impression that they are asking for a large essay or were asking for censorship and get dissuaded because of that, beehaws admin seem to feel that is a good deterrent to those who wouldn't engage in good faith within their community anyway. And it seemed to work on its own, but it quickly fell apart as huge amounts of signups began the surge across the two instances they defederated. Individuals who began to cause problems and enter the communities to troll, were almost all from those instances. It was a matter of they literally can only ban and delete, and with how the modding system in lemmy current system is, it was a losing game of whack a mole they currently cannot win.
Ohhh, that's good to hear. I didn't know about that last part. Hopefully this will get resolved so they can be more open while still doing their own thing.
The weird stuff that happens after defederation seems to me to be one of those wonky things that might keep users away from this kind of platform. Especially with a lot of the intro guides to the fediverse saying things like "it doesn't matter which instance you choose, you can go still go to any community."
Maybe as the instances deals with growing pains and communities get better moderation, defederation can become more of a last resort so these places can feel more connected.
I wonder, if lemmy.world is so unsafe, why are you here?
Where did I say it was unsafe? I was pointing out the dishonesty people have been showing in regards to discussing the reason why beehaw chose to defederate.
Beehaw did imply that, the communication with Ruud was poor, and their "moderation" excuse is simply them acting in bad faith and you seem to agree with them.
They might have implied as such (I don't personally think they did, but such an observation is objective.), but I myself didn't in the post above, and to say I did is dishonest. For the record, I believe they did what they had to do with the limited options they currently have. And I did not like it. Hence why I made an account on here as well. It's not a fascist regime, and I was pointing out the fact that the people acting like it is are being ridiculous. I directly witnessed the reasons why they defederated and quite ironically, an immense rise of interactions escalating precisely like this causing issues in their own communities and limited staffing to address such (especially towards the vulnerable minority communities beehaw wants to protect in ways reddit did not) in a short amount of time is quite exactly why they chose to defederate. Have a lovely day.
😅
I don't think it helps your argument when you're the same one qualifying those who, rightfully, think that Beehaw's move is a dick move, as people being:
and
People are being pissy about it for dishonest reasons is what I meant, if that clarification helps.
Hopefully from the downvotes (to almightysnoo) it's clear that most of us understand what you're saying. I don't begrudge Lemmy its growing pains and the same goes for Beehaw. We're just trying to make it work with what we have, and what we have is expanding quickly, so that encouraging!
I'm glad you and others have been sharing the perspective of what's happening at Beehaw and why, and also that so many people have been sharing what's going on with Lemmy and its bugs and updates.
Edited for clarification
why are you taking it so personally, it really isn't a big deal; they outright said they might refed when lemmy mod tools improve
Regardless of what happened, beehaw is not for everyone.
They aim to be a safe haven for people that are afraid to be harassed for who they are. It's a noble goal IMO but to achieve that, they have to moderate their instance quite heavily.
If you're not their target audience, you'll find it too restrictive.
you might want to look at the list of instances they blocked (your lemmygrad.ml instance is on the list btw)
Whats wrong with beehaw? I got a couple really active, good communities from there in my feed
They block a shit ton of instances, not always for good reasons. Often to maintain an echo chamber.
I thought they planned to refrigerate with those instances once mods tools are a little more developed
they're definitely considering it
As long as people understand the circumstances of that instance I have absolutely no problem with people finding the place they belong.
I just hope there are not new users who don't realize they may not be federated with the larger community.