WillBalls

joined 2 years ago
[–] WillBalls 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You raise a really good point on what the passage of time must feel like to young elves. I'd like to think that elves younger than 1000 years are treated with lots of eye rolls from their elders for brashness, similar to Treebeard telling Merry and Pippin to not be so hasty

[–] WillBalls 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Definitely both 😎

I get what you're saying, but it doesn't work that way in middle earth according to Tolkien. We have lots of instances of Ainur vs Ainur combat where they don't pop out of their hröa for more power. The best example is the war of wrath where the host of the valar (including Eönwë, a Maia) goes against Morgoth, the mightiest of the valar, and there's no mention of that happening. It could be that Tolkien omitted it, but that's a big enough fight that I think it would have been mentioned if it occured

[–] WillBalls 2 points 3 months ago (6 children)

I think I understand what you mean. A physical body does obey laws of physics and thus restricts the "true freedom" of a whisp or spirit. However, a hröa can also focus and direct the energies innate to a fëa, which could make the being more powerful. In Fëanor's case, his fëa was the brightest and strongest of all the elves, and when he died, his hröa actually disintegrated due to the power of his fëa leaving, so one could argue (without much evidence) that his spirit was stronger than a physical body could truly handle (but this falls apart when looking at Morgoth or the other Vala's bodies that don't burn up).

There's not a lot of text specifically surrounding the fëa and hröa, but some of it can be gleaned from the silmarillion, or unfinished tales. Tolkien liked his mysticism a lot more in the earlier drafts of the legendarium, so unfinished tales will probably suit you more (although some of those drafts aren't considered "canon" in light of the silmarillion's later publishing and research, but that's another matter entirely).

You're exactly right with Sauron. He was originally able to shape shift into anything (fun fact: his first appearance was Tevildo Lord of cats, then altered to Thû the necromancer who could turn into a werewolf, then finally Sauron), but after the fall of Númenor, he lost that ability and was left with his body looking dark and evil. By pouring his fëa into the one ring, he risked total doom by its destruction since he wouldn't have enough power left to maintain even a spiritual form on middle earth.

I don't think there's any evidence that a Maiar with a hröa is weaker than a Maia without a hröa. There's no interaction between a pure fëa Ainur and an embodied Ainur, so there's no way to get a definitive answer. I would say that without a hröa, the fëa can't be "focused" and is therefore weaker (from the wiki (no source provided): "According to the Elves, the fëa is powerless without the hröa, and likewise the latter would die without the former.")

[–] WillBalls 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

Huh I guess you're right, my bad. 1000 years is definitely long for men, but I'd say midish for elves ¯\(ツ)

[–] WillBalls 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

To be fair, the istari were diminished Maiar who weren't allowed to use their full power, and Sauron was a full Maia with no qualms about flexing his true strength.

Had Manwë been given the license to send just Eönwë, then Sauron would've been rekt in a year tops

[–] WillBalls 4 points 3 months ago

As stated in unfinished tales, Gandalf didn't know that Bilbo would find the ring on the adventure. He originally wanted to help Thorin since having dwarves in the lonely mountain would prevent Sauron from attacking Gondor and Lothlórien from the north. The ring finding it's way to Gollum and then Bilbo was almost definitely due to slight meddling from Eru (just as Gollum's death was due to Eru loosening the rocks under his feet) so Gandalf could orchestrate the fellowship's journey.

[–] WillBalls 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There's no exact details given for what the blue wizards (the two in the east) were up to. Tolkien only said they were sewing dissent against Sauron

[–] WillBalls 2 points 3 months ago (8 children)

I haven't read anything in the legendarium that supports your theory that the hröa (body in quenya) restricts the fëa (soul).

All beings in Arda initially had hröar, but hröar are susceptible to harm regardless of the status of the fëa within (see Morgoth's wounds, and Sauron and Saruman's deaths) that could cause the fëa to become unbodied. In the case of the fëa becoming unbodied, the fëa would have to be powerful enough to exist on its own, create a new body (Sauron after the fall of Númenor), be otherwise tied to the world (Sauron after the war of the last alliance with the one ring), or dissipate into nothing (Sauron after the destruction of the one ring and Saruman after his death by Grima's)

[–] WillBalls 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

The second age ended with the ending of the war of the last alliance, so Gandalf did arrive later, but not "long after"

[–] WillBalls 6 points 3 months ago

I've had this same issue with a smart TV and you're suggestion was what fixed it

[–] WillBalls 2 points 3 months ago

The balrogs were fire maia that were corrupted by Melkor into beings of fire cloaked in shadow. I interpret that to mean they're primarily beings of fire that "wear" shadow over themselves (which composes their wings)

[–] WillBalls 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

That's a really interesting point. Ungoliant kind of exists outside the established power structure of the Ainur, considering she came from outside Arda, but was never mentioned as participating in the first music of the Ainur (there's no real established origin for Ungoliant, other than "evil spirit from outside the bounds of Arda"). No matter who you are, being called to fight "unknowable ancient Eldritch spider deity" is a pretty horrifying task, and Melkor was even known to have fear when facing much smaller enemies.

One interesting point is how much emphasis Tolkien puts on Ungoliant's powers being focused around darkness and "unlight". Balrogs, being spirits of fire, seem like a natural enemy to a creature of pure darkness, so that might have boosted their comparative power against Ungoliant despite their low numbers.

Another thing to consider is that Melkor was never known to show understanding or mercy to his servants who failed him. I would have to think that any balrog who failed to come to his aid would have been killed (or worse as you postulate) as soon as Morgoth was freed.

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