this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023

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114

Rahimi: The Supreme Court’s big gun case was humiliating for the justices. (slate.com)

submitted 1 year ago by inclementimmigrant to c/politics

39 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Since Bruen, lower court judges applying its test have been, to use a legal term of art, all over the place, a fact repeatedly highlighted during oral arguments by Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, who sought some, any, guidance on how the court should understand its own ruling. Again, lower courts are equally confused. One court, for example, decided that Florida’s ban on the sale of guns to 18-to-20-year-olds passed constitutional muster; another concluded that a federal law disarming people convicted of certain crimes perhaps did not.

A few judges have publicly aired their frustrations with the sudden analytical primacy of law-office history. “We are not experts in what white, wealthy, and male property owners thought about firearms regulation in 1791,” wrote one in 2022. “Yet we are now expected to play historian in the name of constitutional adjudication.” Another castigated the court for creating a game of “historical Where’s Waldo” that entails “mountains of work for district courts that must now deal with Bruen-related arguments in nearly every criminal case in which a firearm is found.”

Just goes to show how shitty, stupid, and partisan this Trump Supreme Court is.

top 39 comments

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[–] dual_sport_dork 46 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm an extremely pro-gun type of dude, but even I'm having a really hard time understanding why this is even a question.

The actions of this Zackey Rahimi dillweed outlined at the beginning are almost certainly felony level offenses. We have agreed for quite a long time that convicted felons cannot own firearms, let alone violent ones. Shooting at cars because of road rage? Shooting at the wrong car because of road rage? Capping off in a Whatabugger because your credit card was declined? I know we like to roll our eyes and make snide comments about "responsible gun owners." This asshat is not a responsible gun owner. There should have already been plenty of due process before this to take his guns away -- being convicted for any of the above offenses would have covered it -- long before we got to the restraining order phase. What I want to know is how the hell he still had a gun after the first offense to go on and commit all the others. (And if he had that gun illegally at the time to begin with, why he was apparently not jammed up for it.)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Take solace in the fact that the justices are likely to uphold this law!

... and somewhat less solace in the fact that one of the justices (I think it was Jackson?) said this was the easy case and they have much hornier Bruen cases in the pipeline.

... and even less solace in the fact that a supposedly "easy" case like this one still made it to the supreme court because of how much a shitshow the Bruen decision is.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a common failing of the justice system. There aren't enough judges and lawyers to handle the case load in a reasonable time frame. This leads to most cases being plea deals, because it's better to spend 6 months locked up than a year waiting for a trial date. This inevitably leads to a handful of people that should have been locked up long ago being free to commit more crimes until they finally go to far for a district attorney to ignore.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

It sounds to me them like we have too many things that are considered crimes, and should loosen up the laws on the least harmful ones like nonviolent drug offences to prioritize the limited resources of the justice system on more serious cases.

[–] inclementimmigrant 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I mean it's pretty easy to see why this is a question.

Trump's supreme court, the highlander quickening geniuses, issued a decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen that and I quote

"When the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct [here the right to bear arms], the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. The government must then justify its regulation by demonstrating that it is consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only then may a court conclude that the individual's conduct falls outside the Second Amendment's "'unqualified command.'"

Basically requiring gun laws to have some analogue in to laws linking back to when the founders first wrote the amendment and if there's no analogue, and in this case it's all about domestic violence wasn't against the law and therefore if the supreme court doesn't want to look like god damn clowns, they should rule that this law is unconstitutional.

[–] Yewb 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

When dumb people get out into power and they make dumb decisions why are we always supprised.

These institutions have many mechanisms to unwind bad decisions its just slow as balls and they have many judges that need to look towards party politics instead of law they need to be removed.

[–] Kbobabob 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

These institutions have many mechanisms to unwind bad decisions

This requires a functioning government, which the US doesn't really have

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This requires a functioning government, which the US doesn’t really have

By design. The people who create roadblocks like this don't want a functioning government. It gets in the way of their cruelty and exploitation of anyone who doesn't have their wealth or influence.

[–] federatingIsTooHard 0 points 1 year ago

they require a functioning government to protect private property. the government is functioning exactly as they intend.

[–] federatingIsTooHard -4 points 1 year ago

When dumb people get out into power and they make dumb decisions why are we always supprised.

when people make laws, they are unable to know how they will effect the future. I'm not doing special pleading for this court or the founders: quite the opposite. I'm saying abolition of law is the only way to ensure this kind of bad decision doesn't continue to haunt us.

[–] SinningStromgald 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Someone at some point said this and I agree that if everyone only had access to muskets that take anywhere from 30seconds to a minute just to load a single shot then everyone gets a gun. No problem. BUT we now have guns that can practically empty their clips in the same time it took to load a musket. And no matter how imaginative any of the founding fathers were they could never have concieved of how deadly guns would get in just a couple hundred years. So to try and use them now as any basis for how we craft gun laws is the height of madness.

On top of all this we have definitive verifiable proof that restricting access to firearms DOES reduce gun violence. ESPECIALLY school shootings. Other countries have done it and it works!

If you are a responsible gun owner, enthusiast or defender and you can't get behind restricting gun access for the health and safety of everyone then you're NOT responsible you're reprehensible.

[+] RaoulDook -12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is a false trope that always gets brought out in the gun control arguments.

There were actually magazine-fed repeating rifles in the era of the founding of the USA. In 1779 the Girandoni air rifle was produced, which was carried by Lewis & Clark on their expedition across the frontier. It was a repeating rifle that could fire at least 19 times and was as powerful as a 9mm handgun cartridge from modern times, but more accurate up to 300 yards.

There was also the Puckle gun (machine gun) and the Gatling gun is pretty old too.

So to claim that the authors of the Constitution had "no idea" about how advanced guns could get is obviously false.

[–] SinningStromgald 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

1500 pumps to fill the air reservoir, crew operated and the last weighed over 100lbs as well as crew operated. Most saw limited use and all had limited availability to the greater public. The founding fathers certainly didn't imagine something even remotely close to an AR-15 even if they did understand how deadly guns are.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The founding fathers advocated for private ownership of literal cannons that are far more powerful than any ar-15.

[–] SinningStromgald 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Takes a while to load, crew operated and very heavy. Quite a bit different than an AR-15 as well.

[–] Whoresradish 2 points 1 year ago

Agreed. A big problem with the gun control debate is that on one hand we have lunatics able to massacre hundreds of children and on the other hand the right to bear arms exists so that people can defend their other rights when the government decides to be tyranical. I've heard the arguements that people can't defend themselves from the modern military, but Vietnam's handling of the US would be the counter arguement. The founding fathers and Karl Marx realized the importance of the people's ability to defend againest tyranny. So all that being said, how do we keep the citizens armed while not letting crazies kill our children. To that I have no answer, but I hope that some kind of comprise can be reached.

[–] Whoresradish 3 points 1 year ago

I had never heard about the Girandoni. Fascinating that they had those concepts so early. A link about it

https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940?si=NQ3cB6jH261T3POj

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I find this excerpt fascinating:

Today’s firearms are also far deadlier than Colonial-era firearms: In about two-thirds of fatal mass shootings between 2014 and 2019, the perpetrator either killed at least one partner or family member or had a history of domestic violence, according to an amicus brief filed by a gun safety group. In the context of a real-life epidemic of deadly intimate partner violence, the fact that the Framers did not disarm abusers in 1791 does not mean they would not have done so if abusers in 1791 murdered as many people as they do in 2023.

Tell me again how any and all restrictions on gun rights should remain unconstitutional in light of the damage being caused by unfettered access to firearms.

[–] Viking_Hippie 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

unfettered

That word choice gives me an idea. We need a man to stop it, to fetter it. A Fetterman, if you will 😉

[–] nyar -3 points 1 year ago

Fuck that genocide apologist. Fetterman sucks ass.

[–] TheJims 11 points 1 year ago

Republicans will never vote in favor of Red Flag Laws that take guns away from Domestic Abusers, Sex Offenders, Predators Etc. Because that’s their fucking BASE!!!

[–] Nightwingdragon 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

One thing the court refused to realize is that the founding fathers of 1791 didn't consider advancements in modern weaponry when writing the Constitution is because those advanced weapons didn't fucking exist. People generally don't write laws about things that don't exist. Go back in time and put an AR 15 in the hands of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson and see if they still believe that that weapon should be in the hands of ordinary citizens.

It would be like trying to use the Constitution as a basis to see how we should handle the immigration rights of space aliens from Jupiter.

And I never did understand why we have to rely on the practices of the 18th century to make rulings about 21st century society. Even the founding fathers knew that the Constitution would have to change over time as society advanced. In fact, they themselves did it 10 times. It's what amendments are for.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

I don't see a good reason for originalism. It seems stupid to me.

[+] RaoulDook -17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This is a false trope that always gets brought out in the gun control arguments.

There was also the Puckle gun (machine gun) and the Gatling gun is pretty old too.

So to claim that the authors of the Constitution had "no idea" about how advanced guns could get is obviously false.

[–] Nightwingdragon 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You grab those, I'll grab an AR-15. Let's see who wins.

The idea that even the most advanced guns of the 1790s would even be in the same league as even the most basic semi-automatic rifle of today is preposterous. You know how many bullets an AR-15 is going to fire off before the Girandoni gets off anywhere close to 19 shots? And after that, let's compare bullet damage. A Girandoni kills people. An AR-15 leaves people as little more than a bloody splattermark where they once stood.

And how many people had access to these advanced weapons in an era before modern industrialization was a thing?

My point stands. There is no possible way the founding fathers had any idea about the weapons that exist today, nor could they possibly have planned for it. Just like the Constitution gives no guidance on how to handle things like flying, colonizing the moon, nuclear weapons, or a host of other things that simply did not exist at the time.

[+] RaoulDook -10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You obviously don't know very much about what you're talking about, so I'm not going to keep wasting my time on this discussion.

Regardless of your ignorant opinions, there is nothing you can do about the fact that those guns are legal and American citizens have the right to own them. There's zero chance the 2nd Amendment will be repealed, and our Supreme Court has repeatedly affirmed the right to bear arms is an individual right unconnected to military service.

Since homicides by firearm are not even in the top 10 most common causes of death in the USA, it would be more helpful to focus on the other issues that Americans have like access to affordable healthcare and housing. We're not giving up the guns, so you should move on.

[–] BURN 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As long as innocent schoolchildren are being murdered in cold blood by people who should not have access to guns we won’t stop.

Americans are the only ones with this problem, and we’re also the only ones with this lax of gun control. There’s a pretty strong correlation here.

I don’t care about your right to own firearms if it impedes the right to life for children.

[–] Nightwingdragon 4 points 1 year ago

I think it's pretty safe to ignore this troll at this point.

He almost, kinda-sorta started off with a semi-legitimate argument, then went off track, and is now just rubbing in a mix of GOP rhetoric and childish taunts.

[+] RaoulDook -8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well you don't have to care about our rights but they will remain intact because there's still nothing you can do about it.

But you should care about our rights, because rights are not something that is easy to obtain. You know they're not just handing out new rights on the regular.

[–] BURN 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I simply do not give a shit. Your right to a gun is infinitely less important than the right to life. You’ll live without your guns. You don’t need them for your day to day life. You carry them because you’re scared of the world.

I support the removal of every gun in civilian hands and bans on manufacturing of new ones. There should not be any way for guns to be widely available to a populace that has consistently proved over the last 20 years that they are incapable of using and maintaining them safely.

[–] RaoulDook -5 points 1 year ago

Well tough shit, because that's just a useless fantasy. Won't happen in the lifetime of anyone who reads any of this.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Oh Lord I do not want to insert myself in this conversation but... I'm curious about the death stats.

Far and away the most common causes of death are disease based - and most are chronic conditions like heart disease or diabetes. You have to get well down the list before things like suicide appear. But suicide appears as a category, not disaggregated by cause (overdose, asphyxiation etc.). The same is true for homicide etc. To get the numbers you reference you'd have to disaggregate the categorical data and then re-aggregate by method.

Do you know of such a data source?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Puckle gun had been invented but it was never in wide use or used in war. There is only good evidence for 2 of them to have ever been built. It was also basically nothing like what we would call a machine gun now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun

The Gatling gun was invented in 1861 and first saw wide use during the American Civil War. (Approx 4 score and 7 years after the Revolutionary War.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatling_gun

The Girandoni air rifle was invented and used shortly after the revolution and the founders likely would have been aware of it but it is an air gun not an automatic or semi-automatic rifle. The air tank was good for about 30 rounds but filling the air tank required pumping the hand pump about 1,500 times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle

In terms of the advancement of firearms technology here's something to consider. While both breach loading and rifling were crudely implemented much earlier it wasn't until America's westward expansion in the mid 19th century that they came into their modern forms and became standard features on batch produced weapons.

[–] RaoulDook -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Gatling gun wasn't a good example, but to rectify that mistake here is an actual machine gun from earlier:

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

The Chambers Flintlock Pattern Gun is also not equivalent to a modern machine gun. Modern machine guns are recoil driven meaning they use the recoil from the last shot to fire the next. Pattern guns chain charges with a projectile between each charge. Once you start firing a pattern gun it doesn't stop until there is no more ammunition. This was a ship mounted gun that couldn't be reloaded quickly enough to be used more than once per battle. There were pistol and musket versions created but their capacity scaled down with their size. The ship mounted version is the only one that saw wide manufacturing and use because the single burst slow reloading gun was less effective than the faster reloading more accurate muzzleloader musket.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

How long did it take to load? How portable was it? How easy was it to set it up and mow down a bunch of unsuspecting civilians before anyone had a chance to respond?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

It could fire 19 times you say... Well then, let's pass out the heavy firearms!

[–] YoBuckStopsHere 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

While the detachable air reservoir could take around 30 shots, it took nearly 1,500 strokes of a hand pump to fill those reservoirs. So, no, your example is not correct, as it would take nearly 40 minutes to pump it up to be able to shoot like that.

[–] RaoulDook -1 points 1 year ago

Nope it's perfectly correct, as humans have access to preparation time before they choose to do things. A rifleman with the Girardoni rifle could simply carry extra reservoirs of pre-compressed air and be able to swap out as needed. The air reservoir was built with a check valve that allowed it to be removed while maintaining pressure.