the US healthcare racket
this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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Well yes,.. but no, you can face significant financial burdens if someone in your family needs living assistance, such as a parent, and the state steps in to cover the costs. The law allows the state to require adult children to contribute to these expenses to a certain degree, but only after all assets of the elder or disabled person have been exhausted ("bankrupting" said person so to speak).
While this is not the same as bankrupting an entire family for life, it can indeed become a heavy financial strain if the parents were not adequately insured or financially prepared for such situations. The obligatio, however, is subject to strict thresholds and limits, such as exemptions for children earning below €100,000 annually, ensuring hardship is avoided.
I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.
Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.
I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.
Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you're the one bullshitting.
The most "extreme" it can get in such systems is that they won't pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they're not as good.
Even then, sometimes they will if it's actually worth it (as in: for something that's a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).
That's "your quality of life won't be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they'll only pay for a not as expensive one", not "death panels".
People in those countries absolutelly aren't going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.
Sorry then.
I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.
The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.
It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.
But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.
Exatcly they dont know shit. While american healthcare system is clearly fucked there are many problems in european healthcare ( very country dependent tho ) ranging from lack of qualified doctors and long waiting times to very expensive treatments not covered in eu for some reason ( the one ive seen the most being uber expensive often experimental treatment where you usualy have to go to america ).
I'm not sure I'm other places but there's a physician shortage in the US, Canada, but there looks to be a shortage in Europe as well..
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9799366/ https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/09/12/doctor-shortages-low-pay-and-overtime-europes-hospitals-are-under-the-weather
I have read the UK NHI doesn't work very well exactly for the reasons mentioned above.
I don't think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon
There are public health systems that just won’t offer that operation. Or you’ll have a 1.5 year waiting list. So in the end, unless you’re rich and pay for private insurance, it comes out as the same.
(Edit: since someone thought my take is because I’m american and don’t understand. I’m european, have lived most my life in europe, this is from lived experience)
People in Australia do experience medical bankruptcy. It's incredibly rare now. But it's true. But it used to be so much worse before we had a public health system. And health outcomes were worse as well. And it cost more.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-18/bob-hawke-what-did-australia-have-before-medicare/11124180
An article just yesterday about the same happening in Switzerland
Not it's not about that at all. This is about someone not getting disability checks, not healthcare, two very different things.
It’s about bankrupcy due to a medical condition.
Yes, resulting from lack of treatment and delay in paying disability benefits.
You are full of shit.
Literally the subheading of the article
Complètement diminuées, des personnes atteintes de Covid long font face à des délais de plus deux ans pour savoir si elles auront droit ou non à une rente AI. Incapables de travailler, certaines finissent ruinées.
In english:
Completely disabled, people stricken by long COVID face delays of more than two years to know if they will have disability benefits. Incapable of working, some finish bankrupt.
Is this not an example of medical bankruptcy ie. bankruptcy due to a medical condition?
If you don't see the difference between the state covering the cost of medical treatment and the state handouts, I cannot help you. You are either deliberately obtuse or simply dim.
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Yeah, that happens sometimes. But in this case the price of an operation will be drastically cheaper.
I had this situation in Germany, there was a minor operation I needed to have which was not life threatening so the one that insurance covered had a waiting period, so I decided to go pay out of pocket and it was around 800 euro. The cheapest price I could find in US for it started at 11000 dollars.
For sure. But now imagine your disabled and on disability income, where you get payed 1k a month and are living in poverty.
If you're disabled and on disability income, it will absolutely not cost you 800 euro. You will be put in front of the queue for the free one. That's why I, able bodied working person with slightly above median income, had to wait. And I think it's as fair of a system that is possible under the circumstances.
That’s not how it works in my country. Great that that’s how your country works. The vast majority of those with universal healthcare don’t work like that.
I used to work for a disability advocacy organisation so I can assure you that.
Which country are you talking about?
My experience in; France, Switzerland, Austria, United Kingdom
For every case of a disabled persion on benefits having to wait 1.5 years for a non-urgent operation because they can't afford private healthcare, there are a million of cases of people who get a common problem like Diabetes or Cardio-Vascular problems and get treated for free (down to getting the medicine for free, which for a person below the poverty line will be true even for the worst countries) rather than suddenly being faced with an extra monthly bill for medicine (which would be a massive hit for those poor people you cosplay as caring about for the sake of argument) or a massive bill for urgent surgery.
(Which reminds me: one thing that will NEVER happen in one of those countries, unlike in the US, is when one ends up in the emergency ward and requires an expensive treatment to save their life, they won't get a massive bill at the end)
Oh, and even if you pay out of pocket for medicine, it's way cheaper in those countries than the US, as governments have used their leverage to limit what Pharmaceutial companies can charge, unlike in the US.
The healthcare risks for the average individual in countries with Universal Healthcare aren't even in the same universe as in the US.
You’re vastly underestimating the number of disabled and poor people and you’re vastly overestimating the number of things that are covered.
I get your proud of your country or your system or whatever, but please don’t minimise the experience of already marginalised groups.
Mate, as I've said it's not one but TWO countries I lived in with Universal Healthcare, and you can't be a Nationalist (as you're trying to imply) for TWO countries.
If you're comparing like to like - i.e. the average poor disabled person in both a country with Universal Healthcare and the US - you're going to get some cases of those having insufficient treatment in countries with UHC (especially in those were neoliberal governments have been defunding their UHC systems to try and privatise Healthcare even against popular will, like the UK), whilst the vast majority of those people will be fucked in the US (unless they're Veterans).
I've lived in several countries and it's just an enormous peace of mind living in a country were you know that if you're involved in an accident and end up getting costly treatement in an emergency ward, you're not going to be ruined.
I think you're seeing the problems relative to a specific baseline and you think that there are massive problems there (which I'm sure there are) but the thing with the US system is that the baseline itself is way worse and all those problem you see would also be problems there but much worse (or maybe not, as those people would die a lot faster, at which point no problem would be visible) and on top of that in the US there are way more people with even worse problems when it comes to Healthcare than the "poor disabled person" in a country with UHC.
Dude I’ve lived in France, Switzerland, Austria, and the UK.
I’m not trying to tell you universal healthcare is bad. I’ve never said the US system is better, in fact it’s far worse. Don’t straw man me.
All I said is the statistics on the meme are false and ignore a lot of suffering and death. And you took that as a personal attack on universal healthcare.
there's still waiting lists in the US.
I mean there's definitely people who go bankrupt due to not being able to work due to illness. If you're a private entrepreneur (or what's the correct term E; self-employed was what I meant) for example then that stuff can take you down easily.
Maybe meme should've specified personal bankruptcy
If you're self-employed entrepreneur then it'd be a personal bankruptcy most of the time in Finland. Having an LLC or such thing for such use isn't common.
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I don't know about the other countries, but In France there definitely still are problems, check this recent story https://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/a-la-une/on-lui-refuse-l-acces-aux-urgences-elle-accouche-sur-le-parking-de-l-hopital
A pregnant women was refused entrance to a private hospital she was forced to give birth on the parking lot in front of the entrance.
Sure the USA have an awful system but it doesn't mean it's perfect everywhere else. There are people that are bankrupt because of medical treatment here too. And we also have corrupt CEOs making it worse
Every country needs a Luigi.
USA have an awful system but it doesn't mean it's perfect everywhere else
I don't think that's the message in this post either, so... The message is, it's just far, far worse with the system they have, due to all healthcare being privatized.
At least that is my understanding. 🤷♂️
Yes of course,
I replied to this post because it is one of many making bold claims about healthcare in other countries than the US, most of the times claims about European countries healthcare made by US users are false and/or misleading.
Sure the US has a very bad system, I see it and recognize how bad it is, but it's a tad annoying to see stuff like that, that falsely say we have "0" bankruptcy or that "everything" is covered by public healthcare, that our life expectancy is that much higher, etc... Most claims are unsourced and blatantly false or largely inflated for shock value.
In France for example we have many issues with our public healthcare, not everything is covered (dental isn't for example), we aren't covered for the full amount unless we pay for private coverage on top (called "mutuelle") which often are linked to your employer, we have to pay up front and then get reimbursed later, geographically there are areas with very few hospitals, the poorer often can't afford to be sick because we aren't always automatically paid for sick days at work, there's a shortage of medical fields' workers, and our current political leaders have been making it worse for decades..
All that to say that from the perspective of a "European" citizen, these posts about the US system compared with ours feels like propaganda that "we should be happy with what we have" even though we really shouldn't, using false information.
Very good points. I haven't seen many other posts regarding this, so I just saw it in this isolated context.
But still, even with the flaws in our European systems, most of them are far superior to the US. The insane amounts you get charged for a simple accident can be hilarious. It's like, breaking a leg costs the same as buying a car. It shouldn't be that way. :-( Especially when the accident is caused by someone else.
But, you're not wrong. 👍 No system is perfect, definitely. Our healthcare system in my country is silently on the verge of collapse because the wages are so low. So employees are quitting left and right, because the stress and workload is not worth the pay. Yet there is a requirement to offer healthcare, so they hire fill-in workers that cost waaaaaay more, so the cost still goes up either way for the employers, yet the net number of workers is also fewer than before. So they are paying more money for less workers, instead of just paying proper salaries for the ones that are actually employed.
It's ridiculous. They'd rather spend 2x money than pay x money, for the principle. Just a big 🖕 to the workforce.
I don't speak French. Why didn't she go to the public one? Why was she forced to give birth on the parking? Why not call an ambulance?
Unpopular opinion incoming: I can understand if they didn't allow her in in a PRIVATE one if she was not covered.
She was too far gone to be able to go to the nearest public one.
It's actually a huge scandal in France, we have laws preventing this, and the hospital is pretending that it was a mistake from an individual employee to refuse her.
So it's literally something that's not legally supposed to happen, unlike in the US.
I know it's probably a bit exaggerated on purpose but also in European countries it's definitely not zero. We are in a significantly better situation than the US, that's fot sure. Our problems aren't remotely comparable. But also here, it can happen that certain treatments aren't covered, also here there are (few) people without health insurance and also here people can lose their job or never find a job in the first place due to illness related issues or disabilities.
As said, much better but also definitely not 0.
I've lived in a couple of countries in Europe and some have Universal Healthcare systems (such as the UK and Portugal) but others such as The Netherlands and Germany have Mixed Systems with Health Insurance but highly regulated and were some people can get Health Insurance from the state.
You're not going to go bankrupt from the treatment or get treatment denied in countries with UHC.
However if you lose your job or never find a job in the first place due to illness related issues or disabilities you'll almost certainly end up on benefits which again can be better or worse depending in the country.
I would say things have been getting worse all over Europe (personally I think it's exactly because there's been too much copying of shit from the US), especially when it comes to the level of benefits for poor people being sufficient (the house prices bubbles all over the place and the lack of building of social housing have made this a massive problem in most countries), but that's not the same as simply going bankrupt from medical bills because you've had an accident, ended up in an emergency ward and got a life saving surgery.
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It's almost like .. universal healthcare would make our economy stronger and the insurance companies are the leaches..
Some people don't want universal health care because they don't want their taxes going towards other people's health care. What they seem to fail to understand is that the exact same thing happens with private health insurance, and some of the money goes towards the insurance company's profits. Universal health care would make things cheaper.
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