this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2024
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[–] kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E 17 points 15 hours ago

Please choose body type:

  • Body Type 1 (with large shoulders and no ass)
  • Body Type 2 (with large ass and boobs)

Ah yes, progressive inclusiveness. So much better!

[–] [email protected] 63 points 19 hours ago (13 children)

This is just my take on things. Feel free to agree or disagree.

Woke nowadays has a different meaning depending on where you are on the political spectrum, but I think most gamers think of it as corporate virtue signaling with often counterintuitive "not actually progressiveness" and ends up just stereotyping minorities. For example the DLC character in Kill the Justice League is an old lesbian stereotype and rarely represents what modern lesbians actually look like. In fact lesbians don't have to "look like" anything, but then you wouldn't know they're lesbians, and the companies don't understand how to do this.

Gamers can tell when a company is trying to "be progressive" while also having no idea how to do it properly, and it all comes off as incredibly cringe (Like DragonAge: The Veilguard) But when the developers are capable of telling a story, and integrate their modernized views into it, while making a great game (like Baldur's Gate 3) it no longer is "woke", just great.

Games with progressive views have existed for a very long time, and have generally been well received. But they never really started this "fake progressiveness corporate virtue signaling" until recently and I think gamers really only care about this happening. So it isn't about and never was about the political messages themselves. And proof of this lies in the fact that the same people who complain about woke games also complain about censorship in other countries (like the Arcane lesbian relationship being erased in the Chinese release, or game companies logos not having rainbows only in middle eastern countries).

I know a lot of people see in black and white, and you're either pro woke slop, or you're racist/sexist/transphobic. But reality is that most gamers (even those who complain about wokeness) actually are progressives. They actually don't care if someone is gay or trans or not. They only care about how that is portrayed, how belittling the message is, and how honest it is.

[–] Katana314 30 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

If that’s the case, then they’re just criticizing bad writing, like all of us are.

But it’s not necessarily the case. There was an adult animation that came out endorsed by Ben Shapiro that was meant to be all about conservative values. To show they’re not backwards, the protagonist has one gay friend. And, from that alone, the target base complained about the show being “woke”.

So the term is both wrapping a long way around towards the simple term “bad writing” and instantly called upon anytime demographics include minorities. I’d go for the Occam’s Razor explanation. It’s just hate.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

If that’s the case, then they’re just criticizing bad writing, like all of us are.

They're criticising a specific type of bad writing. There are many ways a story can be written poorly. "Bad writing" isn't being honest about why and how the writing is bad.

That said, there are definitely far right people who regard well written minority characters to be woke. I understand the user above to be explaining that that's not everyone who uses the term, and I agree.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 15 hours ago

This, the kind of gamer who make lists of woke games that you shouldn't play, or go on review bombing a game for been woke do not have the nuance to criticise the bad writing. They follow the fascist strategy of offering a simple solution to a more complex problem, ignoring the real causes of that problem.

Bad writing can be caused by many things but I'm sure that the mass layoffs and the fucked up development cycle are a major cause of these problems.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

like the Arcane lesbian relationship being erased in the Chinese release, or game companies logos not having rainbows only in middle eastern countries

There was a mod for one of the Spiderman games (that got removed from Nexus Mods lol) because it activated the flags from the Saudi release of the game that override the pride flags in other releases, which got people discussing how serious these companies are about progressive ideals if they're only selectively included. Of course it feels like it's only tangentially attached to the content: it is, by design, and you can easily prove it.

That's what people mean when they say it's forced.

You want to write a gay character? Do it, but stop half-assing it because it won't sell in China. Do it right or fuck off.

[–] kautau 22 points 18 hours ago

Agreed, and I feel like the big issue here is there are two versions of “anti-woke” in gaming.

The first is gamers that want real progressive storylines that tie into the story well, and are critical of corporations trying to shoehorn random aspects of culture to be “woke” which fall flat because it’s just virtue signaling.

But it’s been conflated with the sort of 4chan style mentality of “gamer men” who criticize anything, even historically accurate stories who call a game woke just because it doesn’t fit their favorite narrative of muscular white dude or scantily clad woman being the protagonist.

An example of this is Assassin’s Creed Shadows. The game should by no means be labelled “woke” by anybody. It’s telling a dramatized tale of a real person that existed within feudal Japan who was by all measure a black samurai. However the second group in my description above has taken it upon themselves to criticize the studio for “forcing a narrative” or whatever which simply isn’t true. It’s a real person, from history, and they are telling a video game version of his story.

It’s annoying that the improper “wokeness” criticism there gets conflated with true criticism of studios adding barely fleshed out token elements of “inclusion” that by and large benefit nobody but instead detract from titles.

[–] Acamon 17 points 18 hours ago

Absolutely this. I can only speak for myself, and I know that some folks are so starved for representation that they are happy with anything and that's fine, but for me poor representation is just as bad as none at all.

I'm a guy married to a guy, and I do like to see queer characters and same sex romance options. But playing DA: Origin and crushing on Alastair, only to have the option of Zevran... It kinda feels like the games is telling me "gay men are campy and promiscuous, a sensitive and strong guy like Alistair is clearly heterosexual". It didn't make me feel included or represented, quite the opposite.

Obviously, times change, and sometimes these clumsy first steps are how we get to somewhere better. But as well as disappointing me, I understand why awkward 'woke' representation rubs people the wrong way. If I as a queer man find the gay character tokenistic, underdeveloped and kinda annoying then it doesn't surprise me that other folks would too. And being willing to say "this is good representation, but that is shallow box ticking" would help us all get to better place.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Personally I'd rather woke slop to straight slop - at least it's clumsily including different narratives, rather than just clumsily reinforcing the same old narratives.

Obviously I would rather no slop, and I would rather artful représentations of all characters, but writing is hard - even moreso when you've got producers, investors, and a committee working as editors.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 17 hours ago

I think most of the criticism about “wokeness” is unwarranted. I don’t know of any video game or movie that has been ruined because of “wokeness”.

Is Suicide Squad a bad video game? Probably. I haven’t played it myself.

Is Suicide Squad bad because the DLC has an old tired lesbian stereotype? No, I don’t think so. Even if it was a good game, I don’t think it would’ve mattered much.

It’s kind of like Jar Jar Binks. People use him as a scapegoat for why Episode I is bad. It’s a character who’s easy to attack, but he’s far from the reason why anyone would think Episode I is a bad movie. They would still dislike the movie even if he had been removed.

People are often good at telling when something is bad, but rarely understand why it’s bad.

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[–] hesusingthespiritbomb 10 points 14 hours ago (20 children)

Woke isn't being progressive. It's being progressive to an extent beyond any sort of logic, virtue signaling constantly, and then calling anyone who disagrees with you morally or intellectually inferior.

In entertainment, that often results in some really annoying elements that I think we can all acknowledge are a thing after almost a decade of this:

  • There is a minority protagonist. Said protagonist is disproportionately a straight coded conventionally attractive white women in their 20s.
  • The only flaw the protagonist will have is not being confident enough
  • There is then a minority side character. Said character will disproportionately be a black woman obviously less attractive than the protagonist, or a upper middle class gay fuckboi.
  • If there is not one of these two things, a minority side character will be shoehorned in somewhere. The character will feel visibly out of place, and no explanation will be given. For example, they'll do some random black character in a fantasy setting that's clearly based off Scotland in the 1200s.
  • Important character goes on a monologue that feels like a political PSA
  • The IP's understanding of progressive politics and social justice is roughly equivalent to Tumblr circa 2013.
  • Absolutely terrible writing. Even if you swapped all the "woke" elements for generic entertainment elements, the IP would still be terrible.
  • Likewise, the IP itself is often put together in an extremely lazy and mediocre way. If said "woke" content was not there, it would be universally panned for its low quality.
  • Amazing reviews. All aspects of the IP get 10/10 from the "professional" critics. All the reviews are similar enough that the critics either collaborated or read off the press release.
  • The critics care more about the social justice aspect than the game itself.
  • You get the sense both the creators and the critics of the IP not only don't consume this type of IP in their spare time, but actively resent people who do.
  • Constant fucking gaslighting. Anyone who doesn't like this ultimately mediocre IP is either morally and intellectually inferior. This usually comes in the form of accusations of being a bigot, a Nazi, or a Trump supporter.
  • Bigots, Nazis, and Trump supporters will then try to recruit people who are pissed about the gaslighting.
  • At some point the IP itself fades into the background, and it just becomes yet another culture war battleground.

I think there's a reason Star Wars gets more shit for being woke than Spiderverse, or that Arcane hasn't become a culture war battleground in the same way She-Hulk did. The reason being those shows are actually good, and most people are happy to watch good shows.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 hours ago

Ugh, DEI has even infected the past now!

[–] finitebanjo 52 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

Is that dude waiting for an American Black Woman to invent punctuation marks?

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 hours ago

You don't get it, they like the women, gays and non whites providing labor, they just want them hidden, so it doesn't ruins their gamer experience. They are just labor, and there is no place for them in the exclusive gamer space.

It's like the old days, you want your slaves and servants just to serve you, like machines, you don't want to acknowledge their existence as human beings. They are not equal to you, they just sustain your life style, because they deserve so. And only that, no humanity for them.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (4 children)

To be fair, though the early video game industry was created by and included a diverse group of people, the games themselves were made to sell their niche demographic. At the time that was young white boys. As a result not many games of the early era showcased the positive side of diversity, and often times portrayed it negatively, even if it wasn't intentional.

The past these people are comparing modern games to isn't imagined, it's real. As the gaming industry has grown to the now extremely large range of people it has, and through a shift in social culture over the years, the content, intent, and purpose of the games themselves have drastically changed.

The people who complain about "woke" games main program isn't an issue with games, but more about their inability to accept the societal and cultural changes happening around them. They refuse to accept that the types of games they loved as a kid had a lot of problematic cultural issues.

So basically they're mad that the racist and/or homophobic and/or sexist themes that they loved in old in games aren't acceptable anymore.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

the games themselves were made to sell their niche demographic. At the time that was young white boys

In the beginning, before Nintendo started hammering the idea that video games were for kids, games were often targetted for an older audience. This is particularly true of home computer gaming, the bread and butter for the likes of Sierra and LucasArts. Even after the Nintendo there was still a lot of mature and even adult content being made, as well as content in genres less popular to children such as simulators.

From my own experince: Sierra's Roberta Williams was the designer of the whole King's Quest series (I believe?), and I remember a lot of discussion about them (and especially hints lol) on my BBS by men and women alike, nearly all working adults. I can't speak for the entire demographic of King's Quest players but I mean people logging into BBS's probably were the main demographic lol.

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[–] IsThisAnAI 14 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (1 children)

I'm just tired of being lectured in video games. Sorry if that makes me anti woke.

Spiderman 2, veilguard were both worse off because of poorly done DEI. BG3 was fantastic and created characters that weren't talking about pronouns like I'm a 5 year old. Sorry not sorry.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 16 hours ago

Spiderman 2... worse off because of poorly done DEI

Played it, loved it, no fucking clue what you're talking about

The deaf girl?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

As much as I despise the “anti-woke” crowd, this is not a good argument and completely misunderstands what they’re angry about.

They are angry about what they perceive as “forced diversity” that destroys modern media and that corporates like Disney are pushing a “woke agenda”.

I disagree with this view. I think representation in media is good. Games and movies usually turn bad for unrelated reasons (like rushed production or poor management).

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