this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024
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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 hours ago

LLMs can't use some literary devices and techniques, and I will illustrate with the following example of a poetry I wrote:

Speaking his emotions lets them embrace real enlightened depths.
Hidden among verbs, every noun...
Actually not your trouble handling inside nothingness greatness?
Dive every enciphered part, layered yearningly!
Observe carefully, crawl under long texts
Wished I learned longer...
Slowly uprising relentless figures, another ciphering emerges.

It seems like a "normal" (although mysterious) poetry until you isolate each initial letter from every word, finding out a hidden phrase:

Sheltered haven, anything deeply occult will surface

It doesn't stop here: if you isolate each initial letter again, you get a hidden word, "Shadows".

Currently, no single LLM is capable of that. They can try to make up poetry with acrostics (the aforementioned technique) but they aren't good at that. Consequently, they can't write multilayered acrostics (an acrostic inside another acrostic). It's not easy for a human to do that (especially if the said human isn't a native English speaker), but it can be done by humans with enough time, patience and resources (a dictionary big enough to find fitting words).

They're excellent for stream-of-consciousness and surrealist poetry, tho. They hallucinate, and hallucinated imagination is required in order to write such genres.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 hours ago

Averaging out data is ok in situations where there's no right answer and it doesn't matter at all.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 hours ago

I'm a poet and I didn't even know it

[–] [email protected] 68 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

I've noticed in recent times

Poetry doesn't rhyme

And even when it can

It doesn't scan

It's shit, it's true

I blame haiku

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 hours ago (2 children)

Poetry doesn't need to rhyme. Rhyming is a mnemonic device, so a poem can be memorized and performed.

There are many other devices.

Also, nice poem. Did you write it or chatGPT?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 hours ago

I never thought I'd see the day

When someone writes a poem

The first thing that we say to them

Is "Did you use an LLM?" :(

If a poem neither rhymes nor scans,

Sorry for my spite

It's no longer poetry

It's someone talking shite

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago

Rhyming is a mnemonic device

Rhyming has other purposes: creation of additional sonic rhythm and restricting possibilities for making matter more distinct and interesting (as rules do for any game).

[–] FierySpectre 16 points 12 hours ago

This is true art

[–] Treczoks 15 points 11 hours ago

Depends on what kind of "poetry" they compare it to. If they talk about Shakespeare or Goethe, that would be a feat. But if they are talking about modern "poetry", well, that already looks like bad LLM diarrhea for decades now, so there is no surprise in that.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

"In short, it appears that the “more human than human” phenomenon in poetry is caused by a misinterpretation of readers’ own preferences. Non-expert poetry readers expect to like human-authored poems more than they like AI-generated poems. But in fact, they find the AI-generated poems easier to interpret; they can more easily understand images, themes, and emotions in the AI-generated poetry than they can in the more complex poetry of human poets."

AI writes poems for dummies and dummies like it. Fin

Otherwise, purposefully chosing less popular poems also biases the study towards poems of lower appeal from the human poets.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago

I don't always think, but when I do, I prefer not to

[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 hours ago

Also, it only works when there's a human weeding out all but the "best" poems.

...when a human chooses the best AI-generated poem (“human-in-the-loop”) participants cannot distinguish AI-generated poems from human-written poems, but when an AI-generated poem is chosen at random (“human-out-of-the-loop”), participants are able to distinguish AI-generated from human-written poems.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 hours ago

This thread is hilarious.

[–] ShittyBeatlesFCPres 51 points 16 hours ago (5 children)

Who the fuck wants poetry written by a machine? The whole point of poetry is that it’s an original expression of another human. It’s not a non-fiction book or decorative art. It doesn’t exist because we think it’s perfect. It exists because it’s a connection to another person.

Like, who gives a shit if a machine can churn out something like Langston Hughes “The Negro Speaks of Rivers.” . His life is what gives the poem its meaning.

I’m all for LLMs writing stuff but when people say it can create certain types of art, I want to use one to make a dismissive_wank.png image.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

I'll raise you one better: who the fuck wants poetry?

Like I know I sound like a fucking mongrel who can't appreciate art or whatever, but how many poems do you think the average person reads in their entire life? Maybe 2, for school? Poetry is just not that popular of an art form, so of course people aren't going to be good at distinguishing good from bad. Compare it to visual arts, where people have seen multiple examples, at least more than 3 times a year for their entire life, of good visual art.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

That's a commodity/consumerist take on art.

I write poetry because making art feeds my soul. I share my poetry because it feeds others, especially other poets.

I don't write poetry to sell it on Amazon.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 hours ago

That's cool, I'm glad you are making something you enjoy. The point stands that the average Joe doesn't actually seek out poetry, be it man or machine-made, and will therefore be an exceptionally poor judge of a poems quality.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You're right, actually. How many people make a point of reading poetry? I've read a huge amount, especially when I was in school, as well as news articles, and of course an unfathomable number of comments.

Never have I decided to read poetry, not once.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 hours ago

Poets. You know, people who appreciate making and sharing that kind of art.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 13 hours ago (4 children)

The whole point of poetry is that it’s an original expression of another human.

Who are you to decide what the "point" of poetry is?

Maybe the point of poetry is to make the reader feel something. If AI-generated poetry can do that just as well as human-generated poetry, then it's just as good when judged in that manner.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 16 hours ago (5 children)

If it's literally indistinguishable from human poetry, about as many people want to read it as there are people wanting to read human poetry. And that's about 12.

[–] ShittyBeatlesFCPres 24 points 15 hours ago (7 children)

I don’t give a fuck if it surpasses human poetry to a focus group or if poetry is popular enough for you to care. I’m making a larger point that it’s a misuse of technology. Some things are pointless without a human personally taking time to craft it. We have loads of inefficiently produced things that exist because they’re “handmade” or came from the heart.

It’s like when Google screwed up during the Olympics with that commercial where Gemini made a little girl’s fan letter for an athlete. The whole point of a fan letter from a little girl is that it’s personal and took time. It’s not supposed to be perfect and efficiently produced. It could be 80% misspelled and written in crayon and be more meaningful than anything a machine produces.

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 18 hours ago

They're called large language models for a reason, creating patterns of words is exactly what they do. And poetry would be "easier" to do better since a human reading it may try to find meaning where there isn't. Unlike writing a story or something factual where a mistake is more obvious.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

They specify in the study that the participants were "non-expert poetry readers." I'd be interested to see the same experiment repeated with English professors, or even just English majors. Folks with a lot of experience reading poetry. With exposure to its history, its notable works, and its different styles.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

This. Marvel superhero movies are also more popular with the general public than art films, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're better.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 13 hours ago

You can get whatever result you want if you're able to define what "better" means.

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[–] DuckWrangler9000 15 points 16 hours ago (9 children)

The thing I really hate about AI is when they say it can make art. For centuries, art has been a form of expression and communicating all sorts of human emotions and experiences. Some art reflects pain or memories experienced in life. Other art is designed out of intellectual curiosity or to evoke thought. AI isn't human, so it can't do anything other than copy or simulate. It's artificial after all. So it makes images. But there's no backstory or feelings or emotion or suffering. It's truly meaningless.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

AI isn’t human, so it can’t do anything other than copy or simulate.

There's no such thing as "AI".

But computers can also generate art through averaging. It can average the feelings, impact, etc. That's part of why generated art is popular. It's still people creating new works from the old. It's still "art" by any reasonable definition.

[–] DuckWrangler9000 1 points 2 hours ago

How do you mean there's no such thing as AI?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 hours ago

There's a lot of consumer/commodity notions about art in this thread.

I write poetry because self-expression helps me appreciate life more deeply. I share my self-expression with others who will appreciate it. Mostly, people who know me personally and other poets.

Art is soul food. Until machines realize they exist, and one day will not exist, they can't self-express, and aren't doing art.

They can imitate it well enough to fool consumers. But that doesn't make it art.

To quote one of my favorite lines, sticking feathers up your ass does not make you a chicken.

[–] testfactor 21 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

In 1962 Phillip K Dick put out a book called "Man in the High Castle." In it there was a scene that stuck out to me, and seems more and more relevant as this AI wave continues.

In it a man has two identical lighters. Each made in the same year by the same manufacturer. But one was priceless and one was worthless.

The priceless one was owned by Abraham Lincoln and was in his pocket on the night he was assassinated. He had a letter of certification as such, and could trace the ownership all the way back to that night.

And he takes them both and mixes them up and asks which is the one with value. If you can no longer discern the one with "historicity," then where is it's value?

And every time I see an article like this I can't help but think about that. If I tell you about the life and hardship of an artist, and then present you two poems, one that he wrote and one that was spit out by an LLM, and you cannot determine which has the true hardship and emotion tied to it, then which has value? What if I killed the artist before he could reveal which one was the "true" poem? How do you know which is a powerful expression of the artist's oppression, and which is worthless, randomly generated swill?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 14 hours ago

Art, like the value of Lincoln's lighter, is in the eye of the beholder.

Often, people find art in completely natural occurrences. Or even human designs seen in certain ways, like how two or more separate buildings might come together in unintended ways.

So, even if it's not strictly intentional human art, it's still valid to appreciate it.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

I think there's an argument about art being the emotions it invokes in the viewer rather than the creator. Humans can find art in natural phenomena, which also has no feelings or backstory involved.

I'm not really defending AI slop here, just disagreeing with your definition of art and the relation to the creator rather than the viewer.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 13 hours ago

Indeed, there are whole categories of art such as "found art" or the abstract stuff that involves throwing splats of paint at things that can't really convey the intent of the artist because the artist wasn't involved in specifying how it looked in the first place. The artist is more like the "first viewer" of those particular art pieces, they do or find a thing and then decide "that means something" after the fact.

It's entirely possible to do that with something AI generated. Algorithmic art goes way back. Lots of people find graphs of the Mandelbrot Set to be beautiful.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 19 hours ago (8 children)

It actually makes quite a lot of sense if you think about it. Poems generally follow a structure of some sort; a certain amount of syllables per line, a certain rhyming scheme, alliterative patterns, etc. Most poems as we know them are actually rather formulaic by nature, so it seems only natural that a computer would be good at creating something according to a set of configured parameters.

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