this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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Denuvo's quest to improve its reputation with PC gamers is personal.

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[–] [email protected] 87 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

Oh look, Denuvo playing the victim.

And it exemplifies rather well why I hate the word "toxic": bad reputation? Toxic! Criticism? Toxic!

Bullshitting like «it's in part because it "simply works" and would-be pirates are trying to make it unattractive to game publishers by disparaging it.»? Noooo that is not toxic because it aligns with the discourse that Denuvo wants to spread, right?

"I'm with the company for such a long time," said Ullmann. "The guys here are like my family, because a lot of the others here are also here for ages. It just hurts to see what's posted out there about us, even though it has been claimed wrong for hundreds of times."

"Insert personal story to make it look like you aren't criticising software; no, you're criticising a family. You monster~

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You can be a great person and still write garbage software. Whether you're just doing it because you need money or whether you're misguided and think it's actually good, that doesn't necessarily make you a bad person (and remember: It's hard to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on not understanding it).

Doesn't make the software less garbage.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

A person is good or bad depending on their impact on the people around them; as such I don't consider "misguided" a valid defence.

And while someone can be overall a good person while writing socially harmful and user-hostile software, because they have other qualities that compensate it, writing said software still makes them a worse person.

It’s hard to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on not understanding it

So it's hard to be good when your salary depends on you being bad.


Don't get me wrong. I'm analysing this through my moral views, but I don't think that they're the only valid ones. Your mileage may vary.

My other comment was mostly on how idiotic the whole defence is, not about morality (as this one).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I was responding to the "Look, they're all nice people" defense you quoted, not contradicting you. I agree with you in principle.


I don't consider "misguided" a valid defence.

My view of morality is largely centered on intent, so "I thought it would be a good thing" is a valid defence (though there is also a degree of responsibility to check assumptions; if you never made any effort to check if it actually is a good thing, that's negligence)

So it's hard to be good when your salary depends on you being bad.

...and by extension, when your livelihood depends on you being bad, yes. Not everyone's livelihood depends on their salary, but for many people it does. If it's hard to find a job that can pay the bills, I don't fault people for the human reflex of justifying bad things to yourself in the name of survival.

(But if they do have a choice and choose to enrich themselves at the expense of others, they're obviously pricks - just saying this might not apply to all the devs involved here).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

That's fair - and it's clear that your moral premises are, like, diametrically opposed to mine (I completely disregard intent - for me responsibility takes the job).

I was aware that you weren't contradicting me but this sort of discussion is fun, sorry!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

The willingness to be responsible for consequences does factor in. If you round the corner and crash into someone, you probably didn't intend to, but whether you'll be an ass about it and yell at the other person or whether you'll apologise and check they're alright makes a difference.

In a perfect-information-setting, intent equals result: If I know what my actions will cause and continue to carry them out, the difference between "primary objective" and "accepted side-effect" becomes academic. But in most cases, we don't have perfect information.

I feel like the intent-approach better accounts for the blind spots and unknowns. I'll try to construct two examples to illustrate my reeasoning. Consider them moral dilemmas, as in: arguing around them "out of the box" misses the point.

Ex. 1:
A person is trying to dislodge a stone from their shoe, and in doing so leans on a transformator box to shake it out. You see them leaning on a trafo and shaking and suspect that they might be under electric shock, so you try to save them by grabbing a nearby piece of wood and knocking them away from the box. They lose balance, fall over and get a concussion.
Are you to blame for their concussion, because you knocked them over without need, despite your (misplaced) intention to save them?

Ex. 2:
You try to kill someone by shooting them with a handgun. The bullet misses all critical organs, they're rushed to a hospital and in the process of scanning for bullet fragments to remove, a cancer in the earliest stages is discovered and subsequently removed. The rest of the treatment goes without complications and they make a speedy and full recovery.
Does that make you their saviour, despite your intent to kill them?

In both cases, missing information and unpredictable variables are at play. In the first, you didn't know they weren't actually in danger and couldn't predict they'd get hurt so badly. In the second, you probably didn't know about the tumor and couldn't predict that your shot would fail to kill them. In both cases, I'd argue that it's your intent that matters for moral judgement, while the outcome is due to (bad) "luck" in the sense of "circumstances beyond human control coinciding". You aren't responsible for the concussion, nor are you to credit with saving that life.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

When a plant or an animal is toxic, very often it's a defense mechanism.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Most people that i know that use the word toxic, are the things that they mean when they say toxic. Its a worthless word in the contexts its being used in.

[–] [email protected] 77 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The upcoming Dragon Age: The Veilguard will somewhat surprisingly not use Denuvo at all

There’s the tell. Publishers might start listening to their customers, who generate income, rather than their vendors’ sales personnel, who create expenses. He’s panicked over a potential existential crisis.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago

Huh. This is literally the best advertising veilguard has ever had.

[–] Clasm 45 points 3 weeks ago
[–] [email protected] 44 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Have you tried not hurting game performance?

[–] grue 26 points 3 weeks ago

Better yet, have they tried not fucking with gamers' property rights by shutting down their criminal company?

[–] [email protected] 40 points 3 weeks ago

Fuck Denuvo. DRM does not benefit the gamer. Period. No amount of gaslighting will change that.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 3 weeks ago

Denuvo has the reputation it has for a reason, and labeling their critics (most of the gaming community) as salty pirates is not going to help them any.

When it comes to performance claims, why on Earth would I believe the salespeople for Denuvo over the people forced to play with it? The former has every inventive to quash any and all claims of causing performance issues.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 3 weeks ago

@BrikoX The only thing Denuvo can ever do is make the product worse. Plenty of games launch DRM-free, and that's what I want as a customer.

[–] Ledivin 25 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I haven't bought a Denuvo-protected game in about a decade, and that isn't going to change.

[–] grue 21 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

Denuvo-~~protected~~infested

FTFY. The notion that Denuvo "protects" anything whatsoever is itself accidental pro-Denuvo loaded language.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Unrelated, but I just figured out what FTFY means thanks to your comment.

[–] grue 1 points 3 weeks ago

Glad to be of service!

[–] Ledivin 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Nah, that's a dumb take. Denuvo does protect from casual piracy - even if only temporarily - that's why companies use it.

It also negatively affects legit consumers, and that is the problem - these publishers have decided that potential profit matters more than actual, realized customers.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

To be fair. The Steam forums are actually pretty bad in general and could do with better moderation.

Having said that, there is a reason why some corporations have the reputation that they have. Might want to fix the thing that is causing that reputation instead of blaming everyone else for your bad reputation. But that would be the harder thing to do that takes time and effort and no one likes to put effort in.

[–] QuadratureSurfer 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

What do you mean?
All I see are hearts and love ❤️❤️❤️❤️. /s

[–] hypna 3 points 3 weeks ago

Skill issue.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 weeks ago

denuvo is hostile and toxic program

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 weeks ago

And just like that my opinion of the steam forums skyrocketed.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 weeks ago
[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I'm with the company for such a long time," said Ullmann. "The guys here are like my family, because a lot of the others here are also here for ages. It just hurts to see what's posted out there about us, even though it has been claimed wrong for hundreds of times.

It hurts???
I understand he's being paid to gobble corporate dick, but at least try to mask it like most people do lmao

You couldn't pay me to embarrass myself like this

[–] Etterra 20 points 3 weeks ago

It's because we fucking hate you, Denuvo.

[–] Bosht 16 points 3 weeks ago

Very toxic, and very hostile if you do stupid, dumb corpo bullshit. Fuck this guy.

[–] Reddfugee42 15 points 3 weeks ago
[–] smokin_shinobi 15 points 3 weeks ago

Fuck Denuvo. They just slithered their way into Undisputed with the 1.0 update and I’m stuck without a boxing game again.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Fuck off, Denuvo.

Yes, the Steam forums are awful, but still. Fuck off. Nobody wants you here.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

Nobody wants Denuvo anywhere Shrivel up and die at earliest convenience plzkthx <3

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 weeks ago

Sometimes some people need to get bullied

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 weeks ago

If I read a forum where people are known to object to what I do, there’s a fair chance I’ll get my feelings hurt. That’s on me.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

What's with all the recent articles whitewashing Denuvo?

[–] skizzles 9 points 3 weeks ago

They are trying to "save face" by shit talking while refusing to show any true evidence that their product does not impact performance.

People are tired of it so they stop buying games that have Denuvo. Denuvo needs to look like a sound investment, but it's bleeding out because it really isn't, and companies are likely losing more than they are actually gaining via sales because of Denuvo, thus some companies are distancing themselves and Denuvo is losing money.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

[...] a new effort by Denuvo to bring PC gamers over to its side, which kicked off with a Discord server last week (it didn't go well) and an interview with Rock Paper Shotgun this week

PR baybeeeeee

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

The PR firm they hired must have not googled how hated they were ahead of time. How long till we see bots saying hey love getting broken games with spyware.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The steam-forums are often toxic and hostile. But denuvo also is and every hate justified. It does absolutely nothing good for the honest consumer. Quite the contrary.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago

If anyone deserves the Steam forums' shit it's these cunts.

No amount of hostility will ever reach the levels they've earned with their malware shit.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

You know, i prefer my cyberpunk dystopias to be ballsy enough to just say it with their chest. You'd never catch Lofwyr groveling like this.

I'd also very much prefer dragons, or at least technological implants, but whatever.

[–] edgemaster72 8 points 3 weeks ago

lol. lmao, even. cry more Denuvo.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 weeks ago

Awhhh. Noooo. Not the big big corop's feelings. We're all sooooo sorrry. 🤡