That's not a problem with capitalism, just deregulated capitalism. In Norway higher education is essentially free
' Deregulated capitalism' is capitalism so it's 100% a problem with capitalism. And running things for profit with private ownership is the basic definition of capitalism...... so it sure doesn't sound like Norway's free education is 'for profit' unless I'm grossly misunderstanding.
just deregulated capitalism
The line between "well-regulated capitalism" and "socialism" is entirely subjective. One man's big government job killing mandate is another's sensible growth-oriented reform.
This isnt a unique capitalist problem.
This is power dynamics 101.
The capitalism version of this problem is not even the worst version
This is a super important point. As fucking brutal as capitalism is, any move backward will only make things worse. The only thing we can see with any clarity in the past is the church anyway (which was like a thousand year nightmare) since they took the evidence for everything else and won't let anyone see it.
We won’t to move forwards to a leftist society, not backwards to some right wing authoritarian shitheap.
Not that I think capitalism is good, but how exactly does any other system solve it? And I'm talking about real-world systems, not the idealized ones. Because the made-up unrealistic fable of capitalism has no problem with this either.
Yeah no system is perfect.
Centrally controlled education. We need 500 doctors this year, assign the seats, nobody else can get it. Also, doctors have the same lifestyle as any other professional.
Anyone can study anything for free, sure, great. How long so you let people study to become doctors for? How do you ration enrollment? (We don't have infinite teachers), how do you decide who gets to practice? Lots of filter classes? If the country has 1000 doctor vacancies a year, do you produce 3000 doctors? For the 2000 who don't get to practice, do they maintain their license? Etc... this will increase supply, good thing, which will reduce pay, and reduce student demand. How long do you take to find the equilibrium?
“No system is perfect” motherfucker we can see how free/cheap higher education works in several european countries and yeah, they use grades to select students, same way U.S. schools do.
Also, how is the free market any better than your first ~~strawman~~ concept? Only instead of the gubmint telling you you can’t go, it’s exceeding expensive educational facilities and the circumstances of your birth.
No need for personal insults.
Uh, grades.
You take Doctor 101 and get a C-, well the number of students who graded A-B filled the Doctor 102 class. Study up, and either retake the class or take a test to prove you know the information. You scored high enough on your test? Rad, welcome to the class. This is actually what we do anyway so, you're overthinking things there.
Number of jobs is a weird limitation for gatekeeping professionals. If we only need X amount of doctors, then we're an entirely healthy world with zero illness and no room for new minds to create entirely new methods and further our understanding of medicine? I want anyone driven enough to practice medicine to do so, it's the only way we'll have enough doctors to fix the massive healthcare deficit we're experiencing. Especially through the above grading methods I suggested.
As for the pay decreases, hard to say really without doing it. If an employer believes your education is less valuable because more people can achieve the same, they're a shitty place to work and they'll get what they pay for. There's also the possibility of those doctors being more affordable actually expanding the availability of healthcare overall.
I get why it's worth questioning, but it's broken now so why can't we try to fix it? What if the fix works? Awesome right? What if the fix doesn't work? Good thing the current broken system could act as a fallback, right?
Yeah absolutely. We should always be thinking about how to improve systems. I'm not saying we shouldn't look at it. But we shouldn't say this system is totally broken. Which seems to have been the overall thesis of the original post
Oh, no the system is absolutely broken. I'm just trying to give you a rational explanation to the concerns you raised. I've worked hard my entire life and been screwed over every step of the way. I'm unemployed, living with family, and can't afford to see a doctor. I apply for jobs but never hear back. I learned Python and Linux just because I felt like it, so I'm not unskilled. Ruined my spine unloading trucks in my early 20's, so I can't really do anything manual labor. But like, shit I feel worthless, and I don't think a functional system would put anyone through that. I can't even get assistance because I'm "too young and healthy" so like, fuck me for existing I guess.
Honestly, it's not just capitalism. Education is anywhere from free to really cheap in Germany, and we still don't get many people from poorer families into uni.
I see the main problem here as a sort of class divide between people with university degrees and people without. For example: if you work in a public library and don't have a uni degree you will never get more money than salary level 9 (4k/mo) just having a degree and not doing any more/different work more or less instantly puts you on 12 or higher (6k+)
This I think understandably makes people without uni degrees kind of resentful of those who do have them. And if you grow up resenting a certain group of people you are much less likely to join them.
So, no. "Just" getting rid of the cost won't magically get these people into higher education.
Usually when people are in favour of getting rid of capitalism, they’re also in favour of getting rid of hierarchies such as class divide.
Sure, but one does not inherently include the other.
We can also say this is a failure of culture too. Let's take a look at doctors: why do they need so much education in the form we do it now? You, dear reader, could almost certainly do a doctor's job after a couple years of apprenticeship, even if you aren't very bright.
Not that I'm anti education, i think everyone should have a broad education that is at the very least more comprehensive then what we currently have in America.
You, dear reader, could almost certainly do a doctor's job after a couple years of apprenticeship, even if you aren't very bright.
That would be feldsher, not doctor.
BuT hOw WoUlD yOu PaY fOr It?!
There's a few problems with this. Two I can identify right off the bat:
Just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you're good at it. I don't want the William Hung of medicine doing my surgery.
By artificially limiting the supply of doctors you are increasing demand and salaries (I agree this seems morally wrong a priori/prima facie, especially for something like health care that is a public good). However when the salaries drop then you reduce incentive for smart people going into the field, which has already been happening in medicine for decades. The top of the class that would've become the brilliant physician in the 20th century is your 21st century finance bro. AKA brain drain. (See also point 1.)
I do agree that it is wrong for people to be unable to pursue careers due to the misfortune of their station of birth. I don't know how to fix it other than funding public education.
Capitalism is a method for the control of information. If information were given freely, like as in an actually civilized society not full of fucking barbarians, the world would be a much better place.
Was much better before capitalism.
I think about this all the time with everything from professions to entertainment. I watch a lot of F1 and those guys are always called the best/most talented drivers in the world, and all I can think of is how the most talented driver in the world is probably a poor kid in India or China who’s starving to death that will never have the chance to develop that talent let alone drive a car.
We are missing out on so many brilliant minds because capitalism requires them to be at the bottom. Meritocracy isn’t real and never will be.
Then again, capitalism gave many societies a lot of wealth that they then used to educate everyone.
Debatable, really.
That's an America problem, not a capitalism problem. Free, or at least highly subsidised, higher education isn't exactly limited to communist countries.
Even just free higher education is not enough under capitalism. You need to live somewhere and eat something while you learn. Also reminds me about one comment I wrote. Here's copy-pasta:
American "left": maybe we shold do some student debth relif? Just a tini-tiny. If you don't mind.
Rest of the world right: universal education, more funding!
Rest of the world center: universal education, state must provide students with everything(including housing and food) so they don't worry about anything else other than learning, state must provide teachers with everything(including decent salary) so they don't wory about anything else other than teaching, state must provide universities with all necessary equipment, buildings must be maintained in good condition(so ceiling wouldn't fall on students' and teachers' heads)!
Capitalism can keep people from studying because they need to work instead, or maybe they were in a low-income area and didn't get the chance to go to a good school to get the grades or knowledge they needed before higher education, etc.
Capitalism effects every facet of our lives, even in developed countries where we try to spend money to counter it's damages.
Have to ensure the only ones who can make it to the "big leagues" see unbridled late Stage Capitalism as a perfect system cause THEY made it (on their parents dime.)
If you let people into the upper echelon IN SPITE Of the system working against them they may point out they're an exception to the rule.
Why would the elite class want the plebs to learn medicine or law?
Just you try and open a state law school or med school in these times. It might work out but private interests are going to fight it with full force. It'll be a constant corporate media backlash about the state doesn't need any more lawyers and how much tax money it will cost.
Fighting stuff like this is why they buy tv stations and newspapers
As soon as the selection criteria for access to higher education is less than meritocratic, it undermines the maximization of Economic outcomes because it reduces the chances for the best people for a job to end up in that job (you get maximum Economic productvity if all over the Economy the best person for a job is the one doing the job).
So even by Rightwing principles of better life by more money making, paid-for Education actually detracts from from it because it leads to less money being made (as people who would otherwise be the most capable for certain highly specialized positions are locked from reaching them due to not being able to afford the right education for it).
What paid gor Education does achieve, and really well, is making sure children with high-middle class and upper class parents inherit their priviledges, no matter how inept they are.
It's basically Feudalism extended to cover the Burgeousie, which is why you see this kind of thing deeply entrenched in countries with barelly reformed monarchic systems such as the UK.
It's ironic that capitalism is missing out on more efficient workers who could maximize production and profit because of this. Who knows where we would be if we actually helped people pursue their goals regardless of current income?
Capitalism isn't interested in your passion. Capitalism is interested in your ability to enhance the bottom line of the company you work for. Whether that's a hospital, a pharma company, a charity, etc etc.
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