this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
858 points (98.8% liked)

politics

19124 readers
2685 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 51 points 6 months ago (5 children)

I think the GOP intentionally spews some ridiculous shit like this every so often to make their regular shit look less crazy.

[–] PM_Your_Nudes_Please 31 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That’s not even a conspiracy theory; It’s literally why reps like MTG, Boeburt, and Ted Cruz exist. Their entire goal is to drag the Overton window farther to the right. They’re in safe seats where they don’t need to worry about reelection. So they’re able to spew batshit crazy far-right propaganda, and it makes the republicans in threatened seats look less crazy. Because if you’re in a threatened seat, you need to appear moderate to catch the swing votes. It allows those threatened republicans to continue to quietly vote along party lines without looking like a hardline republican.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

just look at the abortion debate, folks are celebrating that AZ now has a 15 week ban instead of a full ban.

[–] mojo_raisin 26 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Yep, to move the Overton Window to the right. The left should do this as well. If a group of real leftist put out a political platform it would make Biden look like a Republican.

  • Completly ban lobbying
  • Free healthcare for all
  • Free college for all
  • Housing guarantee - homelessness not acceptable
  • Billionaires fortunes taken and redistributed
  • Ban fossil fuel subsidies
  • Military exit from all countries except as part of multi-lateral peace keeping forces

Stuff like that

[–] raspberriesareyummy 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Where's the extreme position in that list? oO

(I know, to the average US citizen, most of those seem extremist :( )

[–] Cryophilia 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Billionaires fortunes taken and redistributed

That's the only extreme one to me. Higher taxes on billionaires is a reasonable take. Government forcibly seizing private property is not.

Honorable mention:

Military exit from all countries except as part of multi-lateral peace keeping forces

This would be extreme except it's not even possible, other countries are not interested in paying for their own defense.

[–] raspberriesareyummy 2 points 6 months ago

That’s the only extreme one to me. Higher taxes on billionaires is a reasonable take. Government forcibly seizing private property is not.

Except that billions are never private property - you have to steal from people to accumulate that much wealth. Or inherit stolen wealth. Exception: stars, where people voluntarily spend that much money to listen to them / see them. Not an exception: sports stars who get paid from sponsoring / advertisement revenues which in turn are stolen by slave labour / low wages.

Nevertheless, no one needs billions, so taking all private properties above 1 billion still leaves those people with an obscene amount of money that honest work can not save up in a hundred(!) lifetimes.

As for the military exit: While I agree that it's not possible, I disagree on the reason - a sudden shift of military concentrations (e.g. weakening presence in some area) is unfortunately pretty much guaranteed to encourage someone to start an armed conflict somewhere. But that could be addressed in the form of the multi-lateral peace keeping forces mentioned.

[–] Maggoty 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Just one thing. You can't ban lobbying. You can and should highly regulate it. But you'd have to put your representatives in an isolation chamber if lobbying was banned. What we need to do is define anything more than a handshake passing between lobbyist and politician as a bribe. But Congress pulled the FBIs fangs decades ago now.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

We could ban lobbying for consideration. (We already have a well-developed body of contract law which spells out the scope of consideration.) A lot of the effectiveness of lobbying comes not from donations, gifts, or other bribe-like transactions, but rather from the scope of their presence. For example, petrochemical lobbyists can show up in person every day of the week, exert direct pressure, and even soft influence like providing consultations or "expert opinion" about bills that come before Congress. The people affected by fracking, on the other hand, have lives to live, and the best that they're capable of is calling and writing letters occasionally.

Ban consideration in exchange for lobbying, instead. If an individual wants to go to D.C. and lobby on behalf of the petrochemical industry for no personal benefit whatsoever (not even covertly), great, that's democracy in action. They'd be on a level playing field with the rest of us.

[–] mojo_raisin 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

But you’d have to put your representatives in an isolation chamber

Interesting... lol

But in all seriousness, I'd say the number of reps we have it wouldn't be impractical for a yearly complete IRS audit for each of them that has real consequences like losing your position, repaying victims fully, and/or going to prison.

[–] Maggoty 1 points 6 months ago

Oh absolutely.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

If a group of real leftist put out a political platform

You're just describing the DSA

[–] mojo_raisin 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Ya, I wish they were more effective. I'd also like to see more from the less authoritarian side of the left.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

the less authoritarian side of the left

Very hard to be authoritarian when you're at the bottom of the economic totem pole. Are you sure you're not just talking about the police, writ large?

[–] mojo_raisin 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I was speaking of the general authoritarian vs libertarian divide in the left. It's not about power excercised, it's about the power some on the left feel entitled to exercise to achieve their goals.

Everyone on the left wants to make the world a better place, eliminate hunger and homelessness, all that good stuff.

--> The terminology is confusing though as different groups use different words or definitions.

On the one side you have your (authoritarian) "socialists", and "communists" those who believe that order must be imposed from above by a powerful government and this government. Good social behavior is coerced by implied threat of force. This government of course is supposed to be and remain benevolent and always controlled by well-meaning socialists to ensure a functional socialist system. The DSA fits in here on the lighter side, "tankies" fit here on the extreme authoritarian end.

On the other side you have your anarchist types (who are also typically non-authoritarian communists), those who feel that any entity powerful enough to control society will inevitably end up controlled by the worst type of people (because this is what's happened in every state/government that has ever existed) and the we should look to non-state and non-coercive solutions.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

the power some on the left feel entitled to exercise to achieve their goals

This reads more like a right-wing interpretation of leftism than any kind of leftist internal critique.

On the other side you have your anarchist types (who are also typically non-authoritarian communists), those who feel that any entity powerful enough to control society will inevitably end up controlled by the worst type of people

That's an Orwellian critique. But Orwell was a Burmese cop turned UK intelligence official under Churchill. The Animal Farm / 1984 view of left-libertarianism is far more a right-wing propaganda critique intended to discourage any form of organizing or collective action. Hell it might as well be lifted directly from the CIA Guidebook on how to disrupt a meeting rules 1, 7, and 8.

And, in the end, the reflexive flight from any kind of organizational structure demonstrably doesn't work. You can have fully decentralized entirely non-violent organically assembled student protests on college campuses, and you'll still be accused of operating as violent, bigoted, fifth columnist dupes of wicked foreign governments. Meanwhile, you're squaring off against a heavily financed, tightly managed, rigid state hierarchy that can act with impunity in the face of a fractured and easily infiltrated opposition.

The foundation of left-anarchism is the cultivation of networks of trust. Not a reactionary fear of authority. When anarchists trust one another, they can and do form hierarchies and develop party discipline and even form state structures once they've achieved sufficient degrees of success. And its these trust networks that allow a community of anarchists to preserver after decades under siege by militant capitalists.

[–] mojo_raisin 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Ya, this is the response I always get from tankies.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Ban fossil fuel subsidies

I think you mean Abolish Cars

[–] mojo_raisin 2 points 6 months ago

I don't think it makes sense to completely abolish cars. There will always be transport needs where public transport, trains, or bicycles just don't fit the bill. There will be car and racing enthusiasts for the next century (assume we don't collapse). The car industry needs to be reduced by 99% though, mostly transforming into maintaining existing cars rather than producing new ones.

Some people will want to or need to live or work where public transit systems would be impractical to build. You can't spend 80 million dollars on a transit system out in the sticks and you can't force everyone to live like sardines next to a bus stop.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 12 points 6 months ago

I wish it was some strategic play to manipulate public opinion. But this is sincerely what white nationalists who have ingested too much Great Replacement Theory honestly think.

Teenage girls are just baby-making factors for the "correct" ethnicity. Everything about our civilization hinges on the level of pigmentation in our skin and the shape of our foreheads/lips. We need to be prepared for a War To End All Wars, and that means churning out an army of Ubermensch to combat the savage hordes.

It isn't an act. This is what they sincerely believe. 20 years of post-9/11 hysteria and migrant-bashing has produced a party dead set on doing Nazi shit all over again, but from the inside of the country that won the last big war.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

20 years ago that was their plan, but now they used the BS to control the masses so long, and so thoroughly, that the rubes that the were playing have taken control of the party.

[–] AutistoMephisto 2 points 6 months ago

See: Tea Party Republicans.

They absolutely are what happened when the rubes got tired of the lip service and demanded action.

Now, if only the radicals of the left could do the same, grow tired of the lip service, and hijack the Democratic Party.