this post was submitted on 21 Feb 2024
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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
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AOSP. Sad but true.
When first pinephone came out I really believed it's heading somewhere. It thought that it will be kind of like raspberry Pi (fun, cheap platform to play with) and that we'll quickly see copycats and it will slowly grow the way Linux on desktop did. AFAIK nothing like this happened. You still can't get a phone with decent Linux support which for me shows that we're stuck with android. I think most people that would help Linux phone happen are simply satisfied with LineageOS so there's no incentive to put as much effort into it as it requires.
AOSP is dying as Google is killing off all the apps in favor of proprietary Google ones.
Lineage os is slowly becoming its own thing as they are maintaining basically all of the system apps at this point.
I like the security measures that Google takes for Android.
I don't like how Google fucks everyone over in everything else
Yeah, I love having to use a custom ROM to get security updates and subsequently root my phone to be able to pass safetynet so I can use banking apps on my phone. Else I have to do as designed: Buy a new phone every 2-3 years :))))))
Not Google's fault alone, but the way Android and ARM both have proprietary components combine into a delightful piece of hot crap that stifles users freedom and innovation.
For some reason everyone is assuming the worst out of my comment.
For reference, I was talking about the change in the system certificate store in Android 14, to which even root cannot directly write to now. This seems like a massive bug to people but this is actually an unintended byproduct instead of intentionally fucking everyone over.
I don't think people realise the amount of work Google puts into Android. I hate their policies as much as the next person, but I can never fail to respect their efforts towards Android. You think A/B would be reality if we left it to Samsung? It would become another locked garden like Apple.
Unless the day comes that we absolutely cannot run custom ROMs (and this is a problem specifically in America because of carriers, not Google or any other OEM), I will never fail to acknowledge the great benefits that Google has brought to Android.
Your problems stem from capitalism and not from Google's code
AOSP is OSS though?
With LineageOS, you pretty much are running AOSP on your phone.
You're technically correct, because Lineage often has to bundle their own apps with AOSP along with a few tweaks.
However, the way you're putting it is as if Google literally removes the backbone of Android in AOSP and serves you a shell. That is simply not the case. You don't want to run Google's proprietary software? You don't get Google's services.
That's all there is to it. Running Lineage is perfectly fine on many devices with Google. The statement that Lineage doesn't work on many devices is only true in America, in which case, blame your carriers.
Try to compile just the Android SDK yourself. No one even knows if this is possible (if all the source code needed is there).
AFAIK the only proprietary parts of AOSP are Google's services and GMS. And any smaller related bits.
Or are you saying that Lineage OS is just guessing in the wild with every release?
"Security measures"
I 100% agree.
Love it or hate it, Android is extremly fast, polished, stable and easy to use, not to mention it has gigantic library apps that are built to work perfectly with a touchscreen.
I honestly don't really get what there is to gain by using "Desktop Linux". I mean sure some proper Programs offer way more features than Apps but using them on a 6.5" Touchscreen sounds like pain.
More freedom I guess. I remember my n900 and how fun it was to just ssh into it and dig in my home directory, install apps with packet manger, edit config files with vi and so on. It really felt like having small Linux machine in my pocket. With Android everything is definitely more locked up but then again, I'm not sure what would I do if it was more open. Writing apps for Android is easier than for desktop (or just as easy), there are no more hardware keyboard phones so using terminal on them is terrible anyway and phones just work anyway so there's no need to mess with the configuration. Personally I mostly gave up on the 'Linux phone' idea and if I need any new features I will simply write cross platform app that runs on Android (for example with tauri).
Sounds a lot like the Android 4.X and 2.X days. Its unfortunate that Google over time has locked down Android more and more. I mean having the option to do wild stuff is better than not having it.
The only real usecase I could see is with a proper Desktop Mode like DEX on High end Samsung phones or Motorola's ready for. Where you can plug your phone into a Monitor and attach a physical keyboard and mouse. In that case, yeah it would be neat to break out of the Android jail.
I don't think anyone actually want's desktop linux, just a free & completely open source phone OS, the only hope for which is a linux derivative.
It doesn't need to be competitive with a flagship phone experience. I think device capabilities have plateaued somewhat... I've been playing around with a 4 year old phone the last few weeks and it's supremely adequate for everything I need to do.
There are a myriad of potential uses for older devices.
@aluminium @ExLisper i mean technically, apple is unix based and android is too, the unix-based OSes have clearly overtaken all the other proprietary systems that popped up in the last 30 years, so there's that
Actually regarding the app department (caveat is that I have an iPhone looking to switch to android), there has been a huge wave of developers making apps for mobile Linux or making their apps compatible. So much so that someone like me (I download everything that’s shiny) has more than had his app needs met and exceeded by what has been released.
Actually my main reason for wanting mobile Linux to succeed is because these apps look and work so good. Especially the gnome ones, the app ecosystem alone makes mobile Linux desirable.
Honestly, even more so when you consider how mobile linux could potentially get Apple levels of cross-device integration (without the baggage), and the ability to have the same UI on your phone and computer. I want to use gnome and libadwaita apps everywhere lol.
The benefits are there, some of ideas out of my head:
Better networking for administrator, access to /etc/hosts file, not being tied to a single VPN slot.
Using old mobile phone as a simple server, having access to firewall tools and normal remote control.
Installing simplier graphical interface for eldery people.
Lifetime updates for many system components that are not device specific.
Simple backups and cloning with standard tools like rsync or borgbackup instead of Google Drive. Also backing up whole system.
Everyone can add a feature, you can make a difference, no need to mess with Google's Android developing pipeline.
Making native apps for mobile and desktop at the same time, no need for bloated web-like abstraction layers.
Apps made in Python, C, Rust... No need to fit into Android SDK. And no forcing Android SDK and Android Studio!
Customizations of the interface look via CSS files (Phosh have it to some sort).
Someone give more ideas?
Yes, it's all true but the issue is you can already do a lot of those things with a lot of cheap hardware that is is simply easier to support than old phones. And when it comes to phones being phones Android is really good and has a lot of apps. I think the problem with Linux phones getting more popular is that the overlap between desktop/server and mobile is very small. I mean I use my phone only for phone things and a lot of things I do on my phone I can do only on my phone (e.g. charging an electric car is basically impossible without a Android/iPhone). Having a phone that can do some things desktop/server can do but can't do a lot of things a phone can do is pretty much pointless at this point.
When we'll get a proper Linux phone with full Android apps support and convergence it will be really awesome but I just don't think there's enough interest to get there at this point.
The problem with Android is it is very invasive and in my opinion untrustworthy. How many of these Android OS's from various vendors are not kept up to date, with unpatched vulnerabilities because they dump support to force upgrade their customers to the next model, when your phone should still be functionally viable. How many apps in the Android ecosystem are just info vacuums? It's a very predatory ecosystem and i would prefer a libre solution to these scumbag predatory corporations. It blows my mind how people are so numb to the abuses of these companies, they won't even consider alternatives. Iphones aren't a viable alternative either unless you're into joining abusive cults. I have both a Pinephone and a Librem 5, and they work fine if you don't mind horrible battery life, i just wish we had more alternatives and I'll put my money towards that endeavor.
Yes, Android has issues but what I'm saying is that so far Linux on phones really hasn't been able to compete. No one want's a phone with no camera, no GPS, no apps and terrible battery. Making Linux phones is just super difficult and sadly I don't see it happening anytime soon. Android is a good platform with lots of hardware and apps. You have Fairphone offering long tern support, f-droid offering privacy oriented apps and LineageOS offering stable OS. Getting more phoes to support it is a better bet than getting Linux to properly work on modern phones.
This is a problem with the current industry, smartphones are conceptually no different than any other computer. It's Qualcomm not publishing proper documentation and tools, propietary bootloaders, drivers being baked as Android packages, no specification how main processor can talk to a modem...
Oof, now I am sad on the account of what could have been.
An Android phone isn't what's referred to when people say "Linux phone". What they're referring to is a phone running GNU/Linux, typically running one of the GNU/Linux phone shells/desktop environments.
I know and what I'm saying is that all those project are moving very slowly while projects like GraphneOS/LineageOS already offer open, privacy oriented phones with good hardware and lot's of apps. This is simply where more effort is going, where we're seeing more progress and our best chance at getting "Linux phones".
Apparently not.
To repeat myself: an Android phone (for example, running GrapheneOS or LineageOS) isn't a "Linux phone".
Not necessarily, F-droid combined with Lineage os or other free software ROM gives you the same freedoms are the Linux desktop does.
What you've said here doesn't contradict what I said. A phone running Lineage OS is explicitly not what people are referring to with the phrase "Linux phone".
You can't even compile any of those FOSS apps without running propietary build of Android SDK. No one managed to build current versions of Android SDK from the source code yet.
Android is like one big blob and changing anything in it require giant effort. Meanwhile making new feature for a Linux phone with common Linux tech stack is super easy and any mid-tier developer can change something in Phosh for example.
I don't believe that is the case
Which one? Android SDK source is under Apache licence, but binaries are under EULA. There were some efforts to properly package it under free licencje, but currently no one do it.
As for Android being giant blob, maybe not the best word but it really is barely available to change. If I want to add a new feature to the UI, I need to build whole ROM again and deal with Google's developing platforms. While on Linux you can get the code for a component from some GitHub/Codeberg and modify/reinstall just that component.
That's just capitulation.
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