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I want everyone to have the ability to vote on every issue if they want too.
You cannot have rich and powerful people under such a system because the means for them to posses such status do not exist.
There is zero biological imperative that rich and powerful people must exist, that’s purely a social construct. Humans are inherently cooperative.
And yes at every point you make progress by breaking laws. What would LGBT rights look like without the Stonewall riots? What would worker rights look like without anarchists kidnapping CEOs and fighting pinkertons, what would black rights look like without a civil war and groups like the black panthers violence.
Our world got to where it is through shedding the blood of tyrants, not asking them nicely.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Disinformation.
There is a finite set of things and a means to obtain significant portions of those finite things.
Humans are complex.
Let me ask you, all that blood shed previously. Did it work? Are we winning right now? You mentioned the US Civil War, ask yourself, did the slaves actually get free? Did the blacks actually get rights? Did the people who started the war face justice?
Also, all that those moments in history where there was shedding of blood. You do understand, if we had that today, you and I are pretty much assured to not make it. You do understand that? If we went to bloodshed, a lot of the people on this forum are highly likely the be part of the dead. You know in the Declaration of Independence there's a line:
And reason why is because they knew, that overthrowing the government means most people die and the rich and power continue on. You do kind of notice how a lot of the folks who signed that document were also very rich and very powerful people and very not dead at the end of the Revolutionary war?
Which is why I'm curious about you quoting Thomas Jefferson in his letter to John Adam's son-in-law. For me a real quote is:
Yes, we are undeniably slightly better off than at any other period. Go ask how many women, queers, or PoC would rather go back to the '50s.
Can you not even recognize such a simple reality?
You seem very well spoken but clearly convicted in seeing the shining and just world you may have thought you were building towards go dark and twisted the way the History books noted should be history.
That's a presumption on my part of course and I'll never truly know, but it rings right.
But this is a topic where your enthusiasm for the recovery of a dream that never was is making you say some seriously ignorant takes, in the dehumanize others for my point sort of way.
There is a small cadre of lovely good old people who don't realize the realities being lived in those they have spent their lives seeing as allies--or at least being non-antagonistic towards.
A terrifying thing to see people who were there or learned first hand from those who were living through the bloody acquisition of the rights of marginalized group after marginalized group.
And how even those rights that were bled for are being eroded, within the same lifetime.
If they still can recognize such a simple reality, that recognition comes with a price that is often decided as not worth paying for those people, for whatever reasons they tell themselves.
I fear you may have with all the best intentions, gelled there as one of those people.
But my God. I have never in my life of being of color and all of the hardships and obstacles that's brought the thought:
"Hmmm, did my ancestors really get freedom? Was the Civil War worth it, for our country's Unity? Wouldn't it be better to still remain chattel while trying to think of how to solve this all amicably".
The ignorance is so staggering I can't manage to be offended.
Let me quote you something:
— Judge Learned Hand (1944)
The fight of a right is indeed one thing, but it does not win the hearts of people. An injustice revealed at a cost of another injustice does not win the hearts of people. The US Civil War won us the 13th amendment but it did not win the hearts of the people. Law is a piece of paper and means only that which people extend to it and no more. Law protects the people to the extent that law is enforced by the people and no less.
Out of the Civil War came share cropping, Jim Crow laws, and disenfranchisement of those who were formerly enslaved. The evil didn't abate, it evolved. It was not the blood shed there that gave salvation, it was the blood there that began the march.
Absolutely not, but at the same time it's foolish to think it was settled. And that's the point I am making, no win is absolute, but every loss is an erosion. This "win" that the other person believes it to be is not such. It is a win if you are of the mindset that the crimes or Trump require a person who took an oath to uphold the law in bad faith was justified.
In your life you've likely wanted this world to be different, to be equal. But that can only be found not by law onto others but by mindset by others. And if law requires equality and the minds of people have not change, no sheet of paper can protect us unless we have faith in that sheet of paper. No document can prevent evil unless we maintain faith in the people who have sworn an oath to do such.
Is that not the problem we see? People who wear uniforms who swear to serve and protect in constant violation of that? People who have taken oath to hold those in violation of that promise who fail to uphold their end of the bargain?
I would say, people taken it upon themselves to believe that ends justify the means is the root of the problem, not the solution. That is why I ask do we believe we got the win in the Civil War? With the 19th Amendment? And the answer is what I've said to the other person.
The events I speak about are not a conclusion of things, but the start of things. They are not wins, they events that direct us. Change us and show our resolve to continue. Evil sinks back because they believe we are resolute and when we show that we are not, then our struggle becomes more difficult.
And to quote:
— Angela Davis (Freedom is a Constant Struggle: Closures and Continuities)
In short, the idea that "freedom" continues with the shedding of blood is incorrect or in the best of light, short sighted. Freedom is maintained in the minds and hearts of the people and when ephemeral wins come at the cost of holding no faith to an oath to protect and uphold the law. Then it is no real win, it is an erosion. There are too many examples of how bad faith poisoned the US in the Reconstruction Era that followed the US Civil War. Of how bad faith fueled hate groups to win the hearts and minds of the people at that time.
Perhaps that won't be the case with this revelation. I honestly hope you all are correct and I am incorrect, to me that would be best for me to be incorrect on this event. I would want nothing more. But any weakness in our resolve to be a nation of laws is a strength to authoritarianism. Any action of bad faith courts more of the like and makes repulsion that more difficult.
I have read all of your comment reply. I don't agree with all of it, but I have read it and I appreciate your time in writing it.
The extra nuance you took to further clarify your point so that your strongly emotive comparisons were not misconstrued as ignorance was a particularly welcome touch.
As to a retort of any kind; Within the framework of the world you describe, you are correct and I would almost be swayed.
I just can't bring myself to believe it can still be true, that it isn't simply the idealism of an age gone by.
If bad faith in kind breeds more bad faith and our own good faith is weaponized against the public good, then what?
If it is erosion, then I personally can only hope that the good intentions on the road to hell will also erode the structures from underneath evil as well as the good.
It is short sighted, but just what else am I supposed to see beyond the cliff we're hurtling towards?
It is always this. I mentioned Angela Davis' book and in it she makes the point that we celebrate these monumental moments because they tell us a story. A story of democracy triumphant. But those events they weren't in reality 100% monumental, they were big yes, but always the details paint a complex story.
It isn't an age gone by because it is an age that hasn't come. And it's not an age to ever come. It's an idea, a dream, a thing for us to work towards always. If you ever look at the Great Seal of the United States you'll notice an incomplete pyramid. It's to symbolize that our work is never done. Because the people who created this nation knew, democracy was never going to be a government that could ever be a one and done situation.
— Thomas Jefferson
— John F. Kennedy
— Barack Obama
The young. For all the ills and failures of society that old people seem to mete out, it is routinely the young that cure it.
That is perhaps the most beautiful thing about all of this. You cannot see beyond the cliff, it's not short sighted, it's being pragmatic. Big ideas like equality and democracy these are things that ask us to look past what's in front of us.
And for that reasons is why it is faith in each other that we're going to make this world better for the younger generations, that we will somehow provide the children of this world the tools that they need to continue onward with this unfinished work. There's a saying, I'm likely to butcher it, but it goes "nothing of value was obtained with ease." I know that faith is routinely shaken in this world, but though you cannot see it we must hold faith that we will keep going.
And I am no person of religion so faith in something isn't something that I just peg as ordained or providence will see us though. The faith I speak of is found in people. I have seen people come together in common cause to set off change. Heck, we've mentioned a few in our previous comments. People are strong and that strength is what strikes fear in all those who bring the ills we're talking about in this world.
That's how you know it's true, if there was no strength, they would not spend so much energy trying to divide us. They, the ruling class and rich, know this already and sometimes it's difficult for us to believe.
I see younger kids these days and goddamn are they clever as hell. Young and unbridled at times yes, but they seems to be keenly aware of the shoddy situation they've been placed into and seem more than ever willing to address it. Sometimes a bit misguided, but that's just inexperience not malice.
You know sometimes I listen to that song by Louis Armstrong, What A Wonderful World. The man lived through two world wars and segregation, what wonderful world could he have been talking about? And I am starting to see it now. He's talking about potential in this world. He lived in the "the worse" for him and the children he sees are born ahead of that with all the unseen possibilities ahead of them.
I know that there's going to be a world I cannot even imagine, that's going to make the world I live in feel shameful. And I know that, because I have faith that it will come to pass. Maybe it is false hope, maybe we will not turn the wheel before we get to the cliff. But buying into the notion that it is a false hope seems to sell short the limitless possibilities this world can be made into and the great strength of the people who inhabit this world.
Thank you for taking the time and for your words once more. You've given much to think we the shakiness in hope can be chalked simply to less experiences; Armstrong was already 90 when I came into this world.
But I can conceptualize what you mean about his message; it resonated enough it's been covered by other musicians I've listened to.
I still fear the bounds of faith in our shared humanity and the meaning of the social contract may be tested, but while I have the conviction I certainly do not wish for that.
I'll take your words in and accept them as a truth for the world.
A world I'd rather live in even if I don't see how to square the sins of the figurative fathers of the past with any actions I could do for the children of today, starting with my literal one.
Mayhap the hope of the past and faith in common humanity will mingle with youthful vision somewhere down the line and I'll have done my part that way, even as I contemplate and rightly fear the alternatives.