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IDF sniper kills two women inside Gaza church, Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem says
(edition.cnn.com)
this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2023
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So the Hamas oct 7 terror attack (which we all condemn) hit about 1/3 security forces and 2/3 civilians.
And Israel is hitting like 90% civilians in Gaza, and even civilians in the West Bank and Lebanon, where Hamas and Hezbollah are or were keeping low.
I always thought it was a terrorist organization against an Apartheid state.
But it seems to look more and more like a terrorist state against freedom fighters.
The Jews have lost the plot and what's worse is that on a very, very visceral level you can't discuss it rationally with them.
"It's us or them".
"They want to wipe us out"
"Remember the Holocaust"
What's horrible is I think most normal people understand that perspective and to some extent we get the deep seeded concern and driver to their actions.
They are punishing a people because of the actions of a few which is bad enough as it is but those people have also been caged for so long with no adequate leadership or organization to do anything about, well, anything.
I'm saying this as a non-Jew with 3 half-Jewish kids. I love the people... But as a nation they need to reflect on themselves not just on recent actions but historically.
I'm going to go to my grave on this, but what has happened to them was horrible and on par with numerous atrocities over the world. Indigenous people were wiped out. Africa was raped and put into bondage for centuries. But what you have in Israel is different.
I think at it's core they continue to not be over The Holocaust. Hurt people hurt people.
Nothing is going to change until the state of Israel changes their approach. Or they can hide behind American hegemony and continue making the ME less safe for them.
Sorry on the rant. It's frustrating. I'm miles away in Canada but anti-Semitism is on the rise everywhere and this bullshit behaviour by a shitstain leader is making things less safe for the people I know.
Hey fun fact. Has anyone actually asked why Anti-Semitism is so sharply on the rise?
Because a lot of governments and organizations actually define criticism of the government of Israel as Anti-Semitism. So they're counting every celebrity, every forum post, and every protestor.
They are most definitely classifying any sort of anti zionism as anti semitism. They are completely different things. The Gazan population are also semites, so it doesn't even make sense.
There is definitely the Nazi kind of antisemitism that still exists in little pockets around the world, but the rise of anti semitism that the media is talking about is mostly just people being against Israel's genocide, and not people condemning Jews as a whole.
We should be very careful about our labels. Just as we don't want to say all Palestinians are not Hamas. We should not say all Jews are Israel. The government and country of Israel is separate from the ethnicity and separate from the religion. Even though many people speaking on behalf of the country of Israel conflate the labels of the religion and the ethnicity we should be better.
I realize you clarify things by the end of your post, but the first sentence of your post paints with a broad brush stroke
I have faith in people like yourself to be intelligent enough to parcel what I've said.
There is a reason I started with Jews and not Israelis. It's because I'm in Canada and I've spoken to Jews in both Canada and America and the sentiment is the same. "Israel can do no wrong".
Now that said, there is a hell of a lot of nuance there which will never carry over properly in a post on Lemmy or anywhere tbh.
Yeah I had to cut being friends with someone who was aggressively pro-trans rights and pro-LGBT and super accepting. Why? Because he's Jewish and was INSISTENT that any criticism of the actions of Israel was to be antisemetic. Last I heard he's still defending them slaughtering civilians because "They're dangerous people."
It's depressing as fuck to see some people unable to seperate religion and state here.
Just illustrates how deeply we can have different principles from other people, but still agree with them on some key issues. Slowly starting to believe they see the world the same way we do. And then all the sudden we get shocked.
Sorry you had to go through losing a friend. That's rough
He wasn't a good friend to begin with. Everytime you were wrong he would do THAT smile and say "No" and then say what's true. That's aggravating enough but he would do the same to opinion. Say your opinion is wrong and explain the "correct" one with the same condescending behavior. Him being insane was just the cherry on top to make me want to leave.
I see a lot of Israeli pink washing too.
Well it's a good thing you did the work and spoke with every Jewish person in north America to be able to paint with such a broad brush. I guess all the people I've spoken with we're lying about their ethnicity.
In seriousness though, simply adding "many" or "a plurality of" is enough to add nuance to the discussion. Starting with the blanket "the Jews" isn't a good look.
Case in point on not being able to have a level headed discussion. Obviously I'm generalizing. Obviously there are those that vehemently disagree with what the state is doing. Unfortunately those aren't the ones making the decisions.
You are entitled to feel the way you do. Doesn't change what I've seen in my years.
Oh my gosh! People online have different opinions and have lived different lives with different world experiences?!
You're generalizing about an ethnic group that has historically been and currently often is the target of discrimination and violent harassment. The citizens of Israel are largely against their government and their actions, as are the Palestinian people against Hamas and their actions.
You generalizing to say the Jews are to blame is perpetuating a serious problem.
I highly recommend you watch this segment from John Oliver on the topic to understand what I mean. https://youtu.be/pJ9PKQbkJv8?si=rtyoNQuMmVPV9B9F
You do realize that there is a nation (Israel) that is generalizing everyone they kill with the same broad brush as well? The IDF themselves have stated that if innocent people die that's acceptable to them.
So yes, instead of having a discussion about what's actually happening let's nitpick on someone generalizing "the Jews". Let's completely invalidate a discussion for that reason and that reason alone.
Best of luck in life.
Don't blame the poster you're responding to for your poor word choice. The criticism you're receiving is fair. Own it, and do better.
I own what I say but other people need to own when their feels are hurt because someone says things they don't like, specifically online.
You're entitled to feel the way you do too, but it doesn't change what I've seen in my years, either.
I think I'm being perfectly level headed, I'm just being a little snarky. At least equally snarky to your comment.
I just wanted to point out that nuance is possible with just a few additional words, but only if we choose to use nuance.
Many, many Jews have been harsh critics of Israel, going all the way back to its founding. Don't lump them in with the terrorists running Israel.
"Was..." but TOTALLY not now.
You meant 'condemn', right?
Yes, fixed
Hold on let him cook...
An honest mistake is an honest mistake. I'm glad OP clarified.
Got em!!! -_-
Correction: If you count all casualties as caused by Hamas it's 1/3 security and 2/3 civilians. The IDF racked up a decent Israeli body count (as contradictory as that is) in their response to the attack so the actual ratio has even fewer civilians.
It is compulsory for all Israelis to do military service. In a way, some civilians in the concert are also soldiers. I have no idea how I would look at it but let's not exclude the military service.
Correction: allegedly it hit 2/3 civilians. Reports suggest that IDF soldiers have been told to shoot without asking who they are shooting is going around. Other reports suggest they are trying to hide information and rejecting to invistigate these deaths because it doesn't matter and "there are many of them".
If we learn anything in the last few weeks is that the number is generously inflated.
We should have source links for such claims. Misinformation makes us weaker at deciding what’s right and wrong; every claim like this reasonably needs verification.
Reservist accidentally shoots Israeli civilian: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-exhumed-to-perform-autopsy-on-body-of-hero-civilian-shot-dead-by-reservist/. I believe in this case the police said, "nothing in his body, no bullets, bury him" but later the reservist came forward, and now the body is being exhhumed
IDF apache pilots couldn't distinguish between civilians and combatants: https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-02cfdbceafc4b81027.htm?utm_source=AndroidNews12&utm_medium=Share (this is in Hebrew)
This report from TheGrayZone that talks about how many of those dead and torched bodies in melted cars could have been victims of the IDF rather than Hamas since Hamas and the other factions don't have weapons that could possibly cause this kind of damage: https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
Another testimony, this time from a victim of the attack, where she mentions Israeli forces shot their own people: https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861. This lead to the tragic death of one 12-year-old Israeli girl (https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaganda-tank-eyewitnesses/). If you speak Hebrew, this is the testimony: https://omny.fm/shows/kan-news/4-26
Another IDF soldier said that he was asked to shell into a house (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/israeli-tank-commander-hailed-as-hero-after-hamas-attack-is-killed-in-gaza)
More reports of this from Mondoweiss with quotes from Haaretz and from other survivors: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/.
Another testimony in this fact-checking piece debunking a video, where one soldier also said she was simply told to shoot, whether there are hostages inside or not: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/12/01/no-video-does-not-prove-idf-tanks-shot-at-israeli-citizens-fact-check/71759408007/
I think there are more reports from IDF soldiers told to fire on their own base to kill Hamas fighters, even with army personnel inside. I can't find this link but I'll try to update it later.
From looking at these many testimonies, it seems that the Hannibal directive was in full action... many seem to have died from helicopter fire or tanks running into their small homes, killing them as well as their captors. IDF and reservists were not given time or training or the ability to distinguish civilians from non-civilians. It also seems like some of the pictures presented by Israel's UN envoy may have been Hamas fighters torched to death in their vehicles, potentially with hostages on board. A large number of these soldiers are really young, some teens. It's likely that the panic + the general IDF philosophy to shoot anything that moves may have caused this tragedy.
Thank you for the references. This is needed to be read by all.
Thanks! It's good to keep in mind that this in no way absolves Hamas. We have footage of combatant's body cams, and we know what they did.
But we also need to listen to the voices that emerged at the beginning and are slowly emerging these last weeks. There are many things wrong with the IDF, and it must admit its mistakes to process.
Why did Israel lie so much, though? 40 beheaded babies when the youngest to die was only 10? Being unable to say how many dead bodies are those of Hamas fighters? Why are released hostages told not to speak to the press and are being monitored with each press interaction? Maybe they just lie for fun.