this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2025
489 points (94.9% liked)
Comics
5826 readers
691 users here now
This is a community for everything comics related! A place for all comics fans.
Rules:
1- Do not violate lemmy.ml site-wide rules
2- Be civil.
3- If you are going to post NSFW content that doesn't violate the lemmy.ml site-wide rules, please mark it as NSFW and add a content warning (CW). This includes content that shows the killing of people and or animals, gore, content that talks about suicide or shows suicide, content that talks about sexual assault, etc. Please use your best judgement. We want to keep this space safe for all our comic lovers.
4- No Zionism or Hasbara apologia of any kind. We stand with Palestine 🇵🇸 . Zionists will be banned on sight.
5- The moderation team reserves the right to remove any post or comments that it deems a necessary for the well-being and safety of the members of this community, and same goes with temporarily or permanently banning any user.
Guidelines:
- If possible, give us your sources.
- If possible, credit creators of each comics in the title or body of your post. If you are the creator, please credit yourself. A simple “- Me” would suffice.
- In general terms, write in body of your post as much information as possible (dates, creators, editors, links).
- If you found the image on the web, it is encouraged to put the direct link to the image in the ‘Link’ field when creating a post, instead of uploading the image to Lemmy. Direct links usually end in .jpg, .png, etc.
- One post by topic.
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy. The USPS is not a "Socialist" section of the US economy while Amazon a "Capitalist" section, rather, the entire economy is designated as Capitalist with Amazon as part of the Private Sector and the USPS as part of the Public Sector. Socialist societies like the USSR had private ownership, see the NEP, or the modern Socialist Market Economy of the PRC. This is similar to what you describe as private ownership being directed by government for the purpose of achieving society's ends, but not the same.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist. The public sectors service and support the private sector, not the other way around, and they fund their safety nets through Imperialism. No country has achieved Communism yet, when we talk about Socialism we talk about Cuba, the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, the former USSR, etc. In Communism, there is no private ownership to begin with, no markets either, all of the economy is publicly owned and planned.
This is what I asked you before. What is capitalism? you agreed with the definition I gave. If you are gonna change the term then we are no longer talking about the same thing.
Like I said, I don't want to talk about socialism because I feel it's an in-between solution that would just make the topic more complex than it already is. Socialism is not Communism either, so please do not use Socialist examples.
I know, that's why the full term I used was "social democratic capitalistic countries", I consider them capitalist States.
I explained it before, but I'll explain it again. Capitalism is, at its simplest, a Mode of Production where private ownership and markets are primary. I'll expand on what "primary" means this time, because I think this is what slipped by. When I say "primary," I mean the driving force and trajectory of the economy, as well as which class controls the state. What does the state serve, the Capitalists or the Workers?
Socialism isn't an "in-between solution," towards Communism. It's the process of building Communism. Humanity has never seen Communism, so I am not sure why you are trying to discuss it. What are you trying to talk about, the hypothetical future society of Communism?
I see. Sorry I missed that.
But then I think that interpretation implies, in its very definition, oligarchy.
What do you call a society where private ownership is the main form of ownership and yet has a State designed to serve the Workers?
And to build communism you don't need an in-between solution?
Is it really only "a process"? or is it also a socioeconomic system?
Yes. Humanity has never seen a fair society, period. Neither one with private ownership, nor one with common ownership. The aliens were not talking about Socialism, they were talking about a hypothetical future society where ownership wasn't a thing at all (not even collective ownership in the socialist sense), nor contracts.
And I dared to try to talk as well about a hypothetical future society of (what I initially considered to be, under my previous definition) Capitalism too.
What do you mean by "main" form of ownership? The primary? Or the one most common? If the former, that doesn't really exist, a state controlled by the workers where the Capitalists have power over the economy would collapse very quickly, perhaps like the Paris Commune in the mid 1800s. If the latter, it would be Socialism, like in the NEP in the USSR, or a more privatized version of the PRC's economy (which is majority public).
I understand that the aliens are talking about a semi-Communist organization. I am not sure how you expect your form of society to come into existence except as a transitional society, like the NEP in the USSR.
I meant the most common. What do you call it?
Also, note that I did not ask you if it exists or not, Communism does not exist either but that does not invalidate the idea, right?
I agree. A transitional "in-between" solution. That's exactly what I meant, a system that still has not fully transitioned and still depends on some core elements from capitalist systems.
So then you mean Socialism a la the NEP. That would not be Capitalism, moreover it would necessarily trend towards Communism. In an instance where markets and private ownership were primary but workers gained control of the state, it would fall like the Paris Commune did.
I see.. well, that seems like a pretty nice idea to me, if it's the way I'm envisioning it.
Also, as a defender of the idea of division of powers, I honestly prefer when executive powers at all levels are distinct from planning/legislative. So if it does really "necessarily trend towards Communism" I'd hope whatever replaces the private owners does the same job of assuming responsibility if/when unfairness happens as it did before the fall. I'd hate if the same level of scrutiny and legal/social pressure wasn't placed against the ones replacing them.
You can dig into how the NEP functioned and how the current PRC functions (and is trending towards) to see such a system in action, or look at Vietnam and Laos.
Sorry, but I disagree China "has a State designed to serve the Workers" (my requirement). I'd say they are in an "in-between" state towards my ideal "private sector, workers state" society, but not really there...
For example, an important tool (probably necessary requirement) to ensure the Workers are being prioritized is transparency. At the moment, I think the CCP is more concerned about their own reputation than anything else. They are perfectly happy with letting big corpo expoit when it benefits the CCP... to the point that they would sooner acquire the company and become themselves the ones doing the explotaition than actually fixing the issues via policy.
The have a wimpy soft globe when it comes to defending the workers but a long tongue when it comes to licking boots of the powerful. They are definitely NOT what I was talking about.
I haven't cecked on Laos and Vietnam, but if you are mentioning China among them (and considering they are pretty close and likely friends of the CCP) I don't have high expectations.
About NEP.. I'm searching but I'm finding it hard to find any measures that were taken to control private owners and force them to redistribute profits. I also see that the Workers were unhappy and called it "New Exploitation of the Proletariat".. so again, it looks like an attempt at addressing the wrong problems. It still does not meet my requirement.
Where have you read about China where you get those impressions? Part of why Xi Jinping is so popular is because he ran an anti-corruption campaign. Moreover, I don't see what you mean by a "private sector, worker state" as an ideal. That doesn't really exist anywhere, the closest would be the NEP or the PRC's economy. There's no functional reason to have a worker owned and controlled state and maintain private ownership except as a method of development in the early stages of Socialism, which is why it existed in the NEP and exists in the PRC, Vietnam, and Laos.
The reason you aren't seeing much on forcing redistribution of profits of the NEP is because its purpose was to develop the Productive Forces to the point where they could be collectivized. The purpose wasn't to be private, the purpose was to use markets as a temporary tool for rapid industrialization before collectivizing.
I think you need to do more studying on why AES states function the way they do, rather than try to theorycraft an ideal society.
I was about to say, this person seems to be very idealist, combined with some wrong ideas (e.g. about private ownership for some reason being better?), it leads to some very wonky stuff
Yea, that's what I'm getting too. This is one of the cases where someone comes in with pre-existing notions about what should be, and allows that to drive the conversation more than learning why Marxists believe what we believe. You hit the nail on the head with private ownership, genuinely don't see why that would make any sense unless you're trying to remain linked to the global economy or develop underdeveloped sectors of the economy rapidly, in all other cases and sometimes even in these cases Public Ownership is just better.
I think the private ownership is coming from this:
The liberal idea of... meritocracy, ah, not that's maybe part of it, but... I know what I want to say, but I forget what it is called, hopefully you can guess it.
I think meritocracy covers it, it's a very "liberal" idea that doesn't really make any material sense. Like, private owners don't assume responsibility, that's part of the problem. Kinda like noblesse oblige.
No, by "assume responsibility" I mean: be the one who's executed / imprisoned / their head cut off
It's the State who should be enforcing that. I'm not saying private owners magically are responsible people.. what I sad is that they will be the ones found responsible by the State.
I literally mean punishing the one who is the owner, whenever unfairness is found.
Who would be punished in Communism? and how?
But thanks for the attempt at trying to understand me, even if not very successfully :P (also thanks @[email protected] )
In Communism, there will be administrators and planners, and the economy will be run more democratically. In the instance that someone is committing a crime, they would be rehabilitated, likely not punished. In Capitalism, business owners aren't punished, really.
Yes, but that would be the legislative / planning arm.. there should be, I expect, an executive arm carrying out the redistribution. Essentially, they would act as the owners of the profit generation-distribution of the particular service, in the same way the private owners do.
So my hope is that they are treated with the same level of scrutiny / social pressure. Essentially, there would not be a lot of difference between private ownership and a form of common ownership when both have a good control. Because at the end of the day, the control is what matters, not whether they have a paper that says "owner" or a paper that says "distributor".
Number 1, the reason Communists don't put too much stock into how Communism will function is because we believe it has to be built towards. We can only speculate. That being said...
In Communism, there's no such thing as profit. Commodity production for exchange-value doesn't exist. There is only production for Use-Value. There's no need for a "profit redistribution" arm of anything, the administration will likely have different ministries like Ministry of Education, etc but there's no need for these individual redistributors. There will be managers, planners, "accountants," and more.
I think you'd do well to investigate how AES, countries trying to build towards Communism, function in reality.
I meant profit of Use-Value.
I already asked you this question before, but you did not answer it, and I remember you were the one to use the word "profit" (in quotes) when talking about Communism for this same reason (I did notice).
How do you ensure the ones who work the hardest get the most Use-Value of the community "profit"?
Or do we no longer care about unfair redistribution of goods / services / food / water / housing / etc ?
Is it only under "private ownership" where we need to make sure we give more value to the ones who work the hardest? is it not unfair if someone who works the least gets more than someone who works the most? what about someone who happens to be friend with the one distributing housing?
... And with this I go to bed, it's late here... thanks for the discussion!
It depends on the phase in Communism. In lower phases, Labor Vouchers (centrally administered and destroyed on first use) would likely be used to for goods and services that aren't essential, essentials would be free. Rates of Labor Vouchers would be based on hours worked, with more for higher skilled or more intense labor, and the same vouchers payed for less time worked in more strenuous or dangerous conditions. In higher phases, it likely wouldn't matter, productivity would be high enough for the mantra "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs."
You can read more on economic planning, but again, please research AES to see how these countries are already attempting to work towards such a system.
My wife is chinese. My sister in law was working for Huawei (just this year she finally quit and came to the EU). I also had China chinese coworkers that were pretty unhappy about how chinese companies they were working for before treated them (eg. AliExpress).
Do you actually believe it when you see a politician saying they ran an anti-corruption campaign with the goal of actually benefiting the Workers and not themselves? Again, I repeat the statement: "the CCP is more concerned about their own reputation than anything else".
Do you think being popular is proof of actually being honest / good politician?
Trump won the popular vote.... a politician having a lot of fans that make a lot of noise does not mean anything. Specially when you are openly banning people who are critic of you...
If Xi Jinping is so good, why does he need to use dirty methods to silence criticism? why is he, instead of searching for transparency, pushing to hide feedback from the Workers?
Transparency is THE ONE THING that can effectively fight corruption. Taking out leaders of big corpos is just a way to wash your hands so that you can then continue playing with the mud under your opaque curtain, protected by "yes men".
I did not say that it exists. Communist states don't exist either, you already said that.
So it did not set rules to make sure the workers are not being treated unfairly? Then I would not consider that any closer than any normal social democracy to what I was proposing. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Social Democracies were closer to it.
Having the purpose of collectivizing does not tell me anything about what rules are being set to ensure we “pay more for more skilled jobs” or “pay the same for fewer hours for dangerous jobs”. It looks like an "in-between" experiment towards something else entirely rather than actually trying to attack the root of the problem.
Why can't you explain it? (this makes me feel a bit like this comment wasn't that far off)
Is theorycrafting only fun when it's about exploring solutions that reject private ownership?
Oh, didn't get the notification for this.
First of all, you have a very small sample size, but more correctly it's 100% correct to say that China has issues and problems. The idea that to call a system "Socialist" or to say that a party in power is genuinely working towards xyz aims means that the system doesn't have problems it needs to work on is flawed. You gave the example of Huawei and AliExpress, both companies run for profit. These companies are going to have similar issues to companies in a Capitalist economy, though the safety nets in China are nicer than in many other countries and there is more accountability from the Workers than most Capitalist countries.
Secondly, as for Xi. No, I don't blindly believe whatever a politician says, however your rant ended up just saying that being popular isn't necessarily indicative of someone representing the interests of the people. I'd counter that by saying Trump also lost the popular vote twice, while Xi has maintained much higher popularity levels consistently. This doesn't mean he's infallible, but we can look at massive campaigns like the Poverty Eradication Campaign or the resurgance of cooperative firms in China, or the campaigns to lower price of medicine through renegotiation, and more to see why he may enioy the support he does.
As for your system not existing in reality, I am specifically questioning why you want that. There is no benefit to Private Ownership at very high levels of development, there is no reason to maintain them. Communism doesn't exist yet because it is a predicted form of society based on analyzing trends in Mode of Production, specifically in Capitalism. What you are saying as "ideal" only seems possible as a step on the way there.
As for the NEP, there's a difference between funneling all of profits in an economy with a large private sector towards social safety nets like you seem to be wanting (at which point public ownership entirely is more efficient) and the NEP. The Soviets, for example, had free healthcare (the first of its kind in the modern world) as early as 1919. They used markets and private ownership purely to build up industry before collectivizing, yet still protected their workers and still collectivized.
I have no genuine idea what you mean by "what rules did they set" to ensure this. They literally codified in law higher pay for more skilled or intense labor, and codified in law lower working hours for more dangerous labor at the same pay. This was a part of the USSR's legal system, I genuinely don't know what else you want to "ensure" that.
I have been explaining, and I haven't thrown link after link at you or told you "you don't understand Communism" like that other commenter implied. I pointed you to studying AES because if you genuinely want to see how some of your ideas would pan out in society, they are your closest bet, and I think you'd rather do your own research rather than take it all from one person's words.
As for theorycrafting, it isn't about "fun." What you're doing is Utopianism, trying to imagine a better society to create outright, rather than analyzing where society is heading and how we can best steer that. I told you already, Communists don't really bother much with this, focusing instead on where we are heading based on what we have observed in reality.