this post was submitted on 23 Jan 2025
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Nazi salute. Not controversial salute. Nazi salute.
It happens for medias to misspeak, like not noticing a genocide and just reporting on "an explosion in Gaza". /s
Akshhhally a lot of what's now associated just with Nazis was a typical "worker party" symbols set in 20s.
Torches - because workers would assemble outside of their work hours, and it would be dark, it's not your soy modernity with labor protections.
This particular thing called "Roman salute" - apparently wasn't too popular outside of Nazis and Italian fascists, but there are archive photos of Communists in Russia in early 20s using that.
The raised fist symbol - well, everybody used it, and again, Nazis too.
Hammer and sickle - that one was in symbolic of Dolfuss' Austria, and it's not a coincidence, it was there because of socdems.
OK, all that isn't necessary. It's clear what gesture Elon intended. It may not be entirely clear what he meant, I think this is not Nazi endorsement, but rather a "f-ck you" to all parties he dislikes, who also happen to be keen on bringing up Nazis. But that wouldn't be controversial too, just weird for a grown up man.
Everything I said is true. And I think it's more interesting for intelligent people to look at the world through others' eyes, not to see confirmation from their herd.
Torches are still used by ARF (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) at its big events.
The wide gesture - I will admit I'm not keeping a file of links for everything, but I have seen such photos of early "pioneers" (like scouts) in USSR and ever Red Army men. I think you won't have to look for too long. Again, these were all early things.
"True" doesn't equal the whole truth.
Yes, the NSDAP, donning the disguise of a Worker's Party, adopted a lot of worker movement symbology, and through their prominence has given it awful connotations. Unsurprisingly, the modern ideological descendants have taken up many of those same symbols.
Yes, other groups use some of those symbols, or some of the other symbols you mentioned. That doesn't mean the symbols are now innocuous. It just means context matters. A single element (like the torches) in a different context (like an Armenian group) doesn't make them Nazis. A hooked cross in the context of Hinduism might mean luck instead.
And in the context of people endorsing Neo-Nazi bullshit, the Nazi salute is very much unmistakable as that.
In this case it does.
I agree it was a disguise, but I should note that it also adopted a lot of such parties' members and activists.
In any case - evil usually doesn't call itself evil. The very idea that there's some new "great evil" waiting to come to the world is wrong. And there were and are a myriad of "small evils" before 1945, since 1945, now and forever, which some very stupid people consider not worthy of fighting because of looking for where the "great evil" will make its comeback. It won't.
If one can't fight those small evils around them, one definitely can't hope to be useful against something greater anyway.
Ideological descendants I know about are all minor parties. The big ones people accuse of that simply have no clear ideology, which means fascist stuff is very convenient to give them some color. But nothing more.
Yes, only that's not what I am answering. Just that the gesture's meaning is not definitively only Nazi.
That's the problem with online communities, everyone is trying to appear smart and mysterious by talking in hints and allegories and dog whistles and fuzzy unfinished thoughts, and also just pretending to catch and guess what others think from fundamentally insufficient amount of information.
Things should be more literal and ordered. Lucian's dialogues are good as an example of this, I don't know if that's how many people really discussed reality in his time, but if really so, then it was a healthier society.
In this case we're talking about Elmo displaying what is, in the context of his whole public presentation, clearly intended as a Nazi salute. So no, truthfully stating that other groups have used that salute too isn't the whole truth because it ignores the context of conversation.
Yeah, but that wasn't originally the conversation you tacked on to.
Sure, but why point that out, when it's not relevant to the conversation of Elmo being a Neo-Nazi? Maybe this helps to consider the optics of your comment:
Media: "Controversial" salute
Comment: Not controversial, just Nazi
You: Well, there are other meanings for the gesture
That sounds a whole lot like the apologism going around trying to paint Elmo as misunderstood.
That's communication in general. We use shorthands so we don't always have to elaborate, but a lot of things pick up different meanings in different contexts.
And in the specific context - because, again, the initial comment you responded to was specific to this specific display of this specific gesture - Elon has displayed a lot of Neo-Nazi behaviour. That doesn't mean he has to be a Neo-Nazi (you're right, see can't know for sure what he thinks) but that he's courting their favour (because we can see what he does). That makes it rather reasonable to assume that a known Neo-Nazi-courter producing something looking like an edgy teenager's imitation of Hitler's salute is indeed performing a Nazi salute.
No matter what else the gesture can mean, it's clear what this instance is intended to signal.
The original conversation can be continued in any way. Saying someone is diverting from it is just bullshit, sadly too common. People try to decide for others what the conversation is about and where it doesn't go, while everything is interconnected and it's not their place.
You've missed one little nuance, a Nazi salute (suppose we're clear that it's what the gesture meant) can be used to, #1, attract those sympathetic to Nazis in symbols, #2, insult those strongly against Nazis in symbols, #3, attract those against people from group #2, and one can go on. I think it's #3 much more than #1, and #1 and #3 are not the same.
That's what I had to say on the subject, but was in a bad condition to think and say it as clearly as now.
Controversial nazi salute does seem to describe the situation most accurately, it's just the fact that it's controversial is bonkers.
It's controversial like nude art. People aren't comfortable with their sexuality and are disturbed by nudity.
In that case, people aren't comfortable to admit that they are nazis.