this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2024
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Forces had no direct confrontation with Hamas terrorists who killed hostages; 'The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible. This news shakes us all,' says army spokesperson Hagari

Israeli forces discovered the bodies of six hostages in a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, approximately a kilometer from where hostage Farhan Alkadi was recently freed. The IDF had no precise intelligence on the hostages' location in recent months but knew there were captives in the sector, leading to a gradual and cautious operation in Rafah since the ground offensive began.

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[–] FlyingSquid 26 points 3 months ago (9 children)

The hostages seem like the only bargaining chip they have (not that it's much of a bargaining chip), so I'm surprised they're doing it. Maybe they've decided that it isn't worth it.

[–] PugJesus 44 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Probably frustration and despair. If your bargaining chip can't get you a bargain, all they're worth is 'revenge' against your opponent.

What a fucked situation.

[–] FlyingSquid 24 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Thinking on it, it was probably also costing them what are now valuable resources to keep them alive. When it's near impossible to get in and out of Gaza, food, medicine, etc. are worth their weight in gold.

[–] Eheran 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So instead of letting them free they murder them?

[–] FlyingSquid 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Why would they let them free when they consider them the enemy?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Because now they'll be pursued for the rest of their life. Free a hostage and you have essentially a get out of jail free card.

[–] GojuRyu 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Do you really believe that any member of hamas would be safe just because they let some hostages go? How would that work? Should they surrender themselves to the IDF while delivering the hostages, just notify them of where they are so they won’t be bombed or how would that all work?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

How would that work? Should they surrender themselves to the IDF while delivering the hostages, just notify them of where they are so they won’t be bombed or how would that all work?

Israel has tip lines set up for Hamas members and members of the Gazan public to call. You call and say, "me and my boys will have an unspecified number of hostages at x location at y time and are looking to surrender. Then you show up at that time with those resources and surrender.

[–] GojuRyu 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Are there any examples of it being used successfully and the aftermath of it? This is a genuine question stemming from my own ignorance on the subject. I would really like for that to be a good way of handeling situations where hostages are released, but I could easily understand why a member of Hamas might have reservations if they do not have reason to trust the system.
If there is good reason to trust it I will agree that that would have been a viable and good way out and should have been used.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes, every so often a news report comes out about individual Hamas members and cells surrendering. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=individual+hamas+members+surrendering+to+IDF

[–] GojuRyu 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately I am still unable to find any stories that tells what happens to the Hamas members after their surrender. I’m unsure if they get treated well or are sent to the same facilities in which there are reports of human rights violations amounting to psykological and physical torture.

I did find some examples of successful surenders, but nothing where hostages were explicitly mentioned to have sweetened the deal of surrender.
I do believe you may be right but I have been unable to verify it myself.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

With their countrymen reportedly dying by the thousands in their behalf. They should surrender en-mass anyway. They've been defeated. Prolonging the war only prolongs the suffering.

[–] SmilingSolaris 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There's a genocide on buddy. They already were.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There wasn't a "genocide" on Oct 6th.

[–] SmilingSolaris 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Just cause you weren't paying attention yet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Ahh so are you one of those "genocide is what I feel it is" folk or one of those "genocide is when the Jews are still alive" sort of folk?

[–] SmilingSolaris 1 points 3 months ago (13 children)

Did you know there are Jewish palastinians? On top of that, Palestinians are semitic. You can't call racist when the group I'm defending is in the same racial group and contains religious Jewish folk. It ain't about being Jewish, it's about the fact I have seen palastinians getting shot in the street for literally my whole life. My whole life I'm hearing news every now and then how Israel overstepped again and ethnically cleanse an area of palastinians. How they kicked palastinians out of their home. I've seen videos of Israeli settlers kicking palastinians out of their home at gunpoint saying that the state sold them the house. It's a state doing a genocide. It isn't "the Jews" you fucking moron. It's the state of Israel. Interesting how you see Israel as being an ethnostate but don't see their removal of natives as genocide. But that's what happens when you don't think about your ideas longer than 5 seconds.

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[–] mkwt 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

If you don't have the resources to provide for your POWs, the correct solution is parole, not execution.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

Hamas are terrorists. They work through terror.

[–] FlyingSquid 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

How would you propose safely paroling them? There's already examples of released hostages then being killed by the IDF.

[–] mkwt 4 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Any type of parole has to be at least marginally less dangerous for the hostage than execution.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Historically you've shipped them to a neutral nation (like Switzerland) who negotiated their return to their home country on the condition that they not be allowed to rejoin the war effort either for the duration of the war or for a specific time.

None of these things are solutions that haven't been seen before.

[–] Passerby6497 40 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I put as much faith in this as I do the hospital tunnel story.

Anything the IDF says is to be treated as bunk without at least 2 corroborating sources. The IDF lies like they breathe, so I'm more willing to assume they killed the hostages to make Hamas look bad than anything they actually say.

[–] FlyingSquid 15 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It's entirely possible this is total nonsense, but I could also see them realizing that keeping them alive was an exercise in futility and, as I suggested in another comment, a waste of precious resources like food.

[–] Passerby6497 22 points 3 months ago (6 children)

Oh, don't get me wrong, it could maybe possibly be true. We're just getting it from a serial liar, so the message is untrustworthy on its face.

I'll be extremely saddened if I'm wrong here, because those people didn't deserve this. But given Israel's long history of blatant lies in the name of PR against anything Palestinian, I'm not going to believe it until a credible source backs up their statement.

[–] Carrolade 9 points 3 months ago

Israeli history isn't even a necessary consideration. The messaging of any warfighting party should always be taken with appropriate caution.

If someone is willing to wage war to achieve their goals, some propaganda efforts are certainly not out of the question. Factuality cannot really be confirmed until after the war is over, and the area becomes safe for neutral parties to visit. Active warzones are just not fountains of factual and verifiable reporting though.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Depending on how recently they were executed, it makes perfect sense. As the one holding hostages, you want to set the precedent that the only way to get them out alive is via negotiation.

[–] FlyingSquid 13 points 3 months ago

They died recently enough for the bodies to be quickly identifiable. No DNA tests necessary or anything apparently.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Hamas is trying to keep as many alive as they can.

But (a) 2000 pound bunker busters don't discriminate between Palestinians and Israelis and (b) if the IDF comes too close to the hostages, their guards have to decide whether to let them go alive or to kill them.

In the case of the Druze guy, I can definitely see Hamas choosing not to kill him. But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.

And finally, sometimes the IDF probably accidentally kills them and tries to blame Hamas if they can get away with it.

[–] mkwt 12 points 3 months ago (1 children)

But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.

This is a war crime. You can't execute POWs just because the enemy is getting close to the POW camp.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

They aren't combatants or PoW, taking them hostage was a human rights violation from the beginning.

But Israel can't really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

But Israel can't really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.

This is a massively false statement. And it's one that should make you reconsider your viewpoint from the ground up.

I don't know if a more incorrect statement could be made about this conflict.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Is Hamas even that disciplined to act as a unified front? Management or soldiers on the site could've decided themselves to take a revenge on hostages. Especially if they knew they are cornered and there were no use of keeping them alive if they are deadmen too.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Based on accounts from hostages who have been freed, Hamas is at least more disciplined than the IDF

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

Probably because they knew that rescue forces were coming, so they killed the hostages so that hopefully, they don't try to rescue more hostages.

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