Cantonese

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Best resources for learning Cantonese grammar (self.cantonese)

submitted 1 year ago by Pat12 to c/cantonese

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There are quite a few resources available for learning spoken Cantonese but i've found it difficult to find resources to learn Cantonese grammar.

For example, the sentence "he asked me to send you some photos" is, in my opinion, not a difficult sentence to translate in many languages but it seems particularly difficult in cantonese:

佢叫我 send的畫比你 keui yiu ngoh send dik waak bei nei he + ask + I + send + of + photo + ? + you

I have found this is called the "passive voice" but i don't understand the sentence order or why/where this "bei" is used.

Does anyone have any good resources for learning cantonese grammar, especially making sentences?

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[–] atkdef 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not a linguist so I can't really answer your question, but IMO the "的" should be "啲", which means "some". A direct translation could be "He asks me (to) send some drawings/paintings to you. "

[–] Pat12 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

ah thank you! that would make more sense

do you know why "bei" is used here? I read that this character is used for comparison, i've read nowhere that it means "to"

" he + ask + i + send + some + photo + ? + you" no longer sounds like a passive sentence either

[–] atkdef 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think it's in passive voice.
The "bei" relevant to your original question should actually be "畀", which means "give".
To express the meaning of "comparison", the "bei" should be "比". For example, "我比你高" means "I'm taller than you". This is where your confusion comes from; the original sentence in your question does not really use the right word.
Some people tend to mix the usage of 畀/俾/比, IMO the first two can somewhat be exchangeable, while the last one can't. "俾" has a meaning of being passive, "我俾人打" means "I was assaulted by someone".

[–] Pat12 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The “bei” relevant to your original question should actually be “畀”, which means “give”.

I found on wikipedia that 比 is a character variation of 畀 in colloquial cantonese and it means to/for (see here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%95%80#Chinese ) however i can't find this topic mentioned anywhere in any lesson book

[–] atkdef 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Colloquial Cantonese writing tends to keep the pronunciation correct while the characters used vary. From your link about "畀" I can't find any references to "比".

I'm pretty sure I can figure out what the writer wants to express no matter which one is used, but it's hardly correct if "比" is used in my personal opinion.

Another thing to be aware of, it's rare (if not never) to replace "比" by "畀/俾".

[–] Pat12 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

From your link about “畀” I can’t find any references to “比”.

In this article (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AF%94) there is a box saying "For pronunciation and definitions of 比 – see 畀 (“(Cantonese) to give; for; to; by; etc.”). (This character, 比, is a variant form of 畀.) "

[–] atkdef 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks for your info, but given this is near the end of the explanation of "比", this is probably rarely used. In fact, this usage gives me a feeling of being overly lazy or illiterate. My recommendation is to forget about this and use the other two when they're more appropriate.

[–] Pat12 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can use the original one but I don't think this variation is rarely used, it was used by a native speaker to translate the sentence

[–] atkdef 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Cantonese writings are not used in formal documents. In other words, we may say that all the Cantonese writings are colloquial, thus the mix use of those 3. One typical example is the subtitles in television. They're mostly formal Chinese; it's near impossible to find those 3 words there.
Not being rude to the native speaker you mentioned, but there's a significant amount of native speakers that can only listen/speak Cantonese. This is especially true in the mainland (Canton province). I'm also a native speaker and have been using Cantonese writing for more than 10 years, with handwrite IME in my phone. I think I could be decent on answering questions about writing.
Here's some links from a quick Google on the 3 words.

https://cantonesemuseum.blogspot.com/2018/02/blog-post_13.html?m=1

https://articles.omghomework.com/%E7%95%80%E4%BF%BE%E6%AF%94/

Here's a more advanced but subjective one.

https://notesbooks.wordpress.com/2016/11/13/%E7%95%80%E4%BF%BE%E6%AF%94%EF%BC%8E%E4%BD%BF%E9%A7%9B%E6%B4%97/

You can see that they all mention the mix of "畀/俾" but not "比".

Feel free to ask more questions, I'm happy to answer

[–] Pat12 1 points 1 year ago

understood, thank you for the feedback!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

bei (比) has multiple meanings.

In this context it is "to" or "give to". It is a very common use of this character.

I don't think it is a passive sentence.