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If you are not inclined to want fascist leaders, and assuming you are a person and not a troll, how do you imagine ceasing to support the less fascist party during an election year will result in less fascism?
We are only driving in one direction. The GOP keeps their pedal to the floor, while the Democrats have been happy just to ease up the gas a little - but not slam on the brakes.
You're saying that it's better to support the Democrats and delay the inevitable arrival at destination Facism.
I'm saying if ever want to hope to flip a bitch, or even just find an off-ramp, the Democratic party has to be retrained on who they respond to. The only way to do that is to make them more responsive to their voters, then to their donors.
When facing down the barrel of the unlimited donations and super PACS of their donor class, the only weapon we have is solidarity in not supporting them, until they learn.
Taking a little medicine now, but with the chance to actually turn this car around, is worth the risk when the other option is just delayed full tilt facism, with occasional letting off the gas for the new Tea Party Democrats, if they aren't already outlawed by that point.
...and if they instead decide that the left cannot be depended on and start courting voters more to the right?
I honestly felt how you feel. I just don't think it's historically worked that way.
Push local reps to the left and Primary the centrists. I'm all for it... but going home because your guy isn't on the ballot is playing a dangerous game right now.
If the country can handle a Republican win, then go back to staying home in protest. But I think, especially at this point in time, that a Trump win would spell the end of American democracy.
You realize that courting the right, and destroying the left, has been the current Democratic party establishments playbook for quite a while already....right?
That was actually part of the Hillary Clinton's campaign strategy. But don't take my word for it, go read up on their well documented belief that they could give up on rural and bluecollar democrats, and replace them with "moderate GOP voters" from the suburbs.
Hint: it didn't work.
So.... you're counterpoint is that if I don't support them, they'll just keep doing what they're already doing?
I disagree. They're behave like that because they can. Because despite their base despising their donor first agenda, the base still turns out for them, more or less.
The only way to correct that, is to retrain them on who's needs they need to be responsive to. Absent becoming a billionaire who supports the 99%, the only way is to not support them, and be vocal about why.
Yes, that's my point exactly.
Here is the painful truth that I realized back when I thought the way you do: They don't give a flying fuck about us. We're not numerous enough to sit out, be vocal, and hope they feel our absence. They didn't in 2016. They didn't in 2020. They won't in 2024. We're too fringe and too few. They just see us as fickle and hard to please extremists. We'd need to bring way more mainstream people with us to be heard. Hell, Gaza is actually getting some mainstream attention and Biden is still blocking UN action and sending Israel billions in weapons.
The average democrat voter is more than willing to guzzle the party's liberal bullshit. Catering to "independents" and the disillusioned right pulls in more than enough votes to outweigh the left vocally sitting out. Have you watched any mainstream media?
We need to change the party from within. Be present and involved. Vote in primaries for leftists and support them. Run in the primaries if there aren't leftists. The thing is that most voters want leftist policies once they understand how they'll benefit from them.
In the meantime, there legitimately may not be an election in 2028 if this fucking psychopath wanna be mob boss gets another shot at a coup. It won't fucking matter after that - making political change will take civil war.
You mean vote in the Presidential primary that the DNC cancelled this year?
Or did you mean, ignore that they cancelled it, and just vote for Biden like a good little lemming?
Don't be so hysterical. Trump is bad, and I'm under no illusion what another term of his would be like, but he's far too stupid and petty to "end democracy", the Democrats are doing fine at doing that themselves.
I'm not some young radical. I've been through many cycles, and I've worked on more campaigns then most of people have voted in.
And yes, I've worked inside the DNC apparatus and been around contemporary Democratic machine politics nearly my entire life. I have a pretty good idea of what these people are like, because I've known a whole lot of them.
You are not arguing in good faith. I obviously mean every fucking Democratic primary in the country... Jesus fuck.
I mean make sure it doesn't fucking happen in the future. NOT voting is what the Democratic party expects the left to do. NOT voting is exactly what the right wants you to do. Hell, I'm half convinced that's your goal to begin with. We live in fucked up times with misinformation and manipulation via social media is a powerful tool.
...
I'm sorry, do only smart and reasonable people have the ability to end democracy? The only reason he didn't fucking steal the White House already is because he was to stupid and petty to do it right the first time and the old right wing powers thought he was making them look bad.
This time, they realized he's barely suffered any consequences and they are going all in. He's their shot. They'll suck his dick and hand him a crown as long as it gets them in the door and keeps them in power. He'll do what they want - appoint the judges, issue the executive orders, whatever - so long as he gets that crown and his pile of cash.
Even if Trump manages to peacefully transfer power after an election in 2028, the United States will no longer be a democracy. I'm honestly scared to death of what a less stupid, less petty right wing president could do with the structure the right has been using Trump to put in place. Too much damage will already have been done.
Put out the fire now, do whatever it takes to make sure the lesser of two evils wins, and fix the Democratic party from within. Hell, fix the voting system and go third party, I don't care. Its not like I'm not sick of this shit too. I can't fucking wait for a time when the D's don't have the trumppocalypse to scare voters into giving them a pass for their bullshit.
Doubt.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/23/biden-primaries-unchallenged/
Yes, they effectively rigged the Presidential primary this cycle for Biden. It wasn't really a secret, was widely covered, and if you aren't aware of that, I don't think you're informed enough to even have this conversation.
I genuinely don't care if you believe me. It wasn't an appeal to authority to get you to change your mind. It was in response to your patronizing "I used to be like you" schtick.
I never said don't vote, not once. I haven't even appealed to others to follow my lead in not supporting Biden.
I have laid out some of my reasons for not supporting Biden, and that is what you find so offensive.
"The lesser of two evils" game will never end. That is the fire, that is how we got Trump in the first place. Continuing to breath life into the existing DNC isn't going to put it out, it's just going to fan the flames.
Wake up and smell smoke.
So how does one vote in the presidential election and not, in some way, support Biden?
My whole fucking point is that not voting for Biden brings us one step closer to a country I doubt either of us would prefer to live in. I am vocal in my opposition to the choice we're being given and in my criticism of a great many actions and inactions of the current administration but I'm still going to vote for Biden over Trump and over any third party candidate.
What, exactly, is your point? If not withholding your vote and yelling about it then how does one "not support" Biden?
I don't know about your locality, but I've never lived in a state where a Presidential general election ballot doesn't have a whole lot of other races and ballot initiatives on it...
I don't see how my not supporting Biden, or the establishment DNC candidates, somehow prevents me from voting for school bonds, local progressive grassroots candidates, or any other measures and races on the ballot this year.
So...good for you, vote your conscience, and I'll vote mine.
I see. So you are advocating to not vote for Biden. Your not explicitly telling people not to vote for Biden, your just telling them that doing so is actively making the country worse. Got it.
As opposed to you, and the others like you, who are demanding that anyone who voices dissent and discontent must still vote for Biden, and to do otherwise means we're actually a combination of Trump supporting tankies who run socket puppet accounts for Russia, who really want the country to continue sliding towards fascim.
So yeah, I understand your position just fine.
Lol
LOL. Fucking LOL.
One last reply and I'm done.
Yes, I doubt that you are some disgruntled DNC veteran. Yes, in this day and age I can't be certain that you aren't just part of some foreign or domestic social media effort to destroy morale and advocate for not voting. However, I only mentioned it offhand and have continued to treat you like an individual. You have not done the same.
I see you as misguided and angry. I see you as unaware of the consequences and ineffectiveness of the actions you advocate for. You never said anything to deny what a second Trump presidency would look like, besides the extremely simple assertion that he's too stupid and petty. You act like it will be fine.
You ignore the damage he's already done. Women all over the country are suffering, voting is being suppressed, minorities and LGBTQ+ folks are being denied their rights, environmental laws are getting gutted, and good federal agencies are being stripped of their power... because of the justices and judges that Trump appointed. You ignore all this and state you're going to refuse to vote for establishment candidates in the general election. Why? Because, like a child, you are angry that your preferred candidate didn't win the primary. So, to "send a message", you're willing to risk pushing our country another four years closer to a fascist theocracy...
Yeah, I'm going to hold my nose and vote with my conscience.
You're technically correct, but only because the DNC drinks from the same neoliberal Kool Aid. The apparatus is now mostly run from their bloated privatized consultant class (campaign consultants, media firms, polling outfits, etc.).
Of which, I'm sorry to say, I have spent time both employed by personally, as well as many years in close proximity to, outside of my own direct professional engagement.
I love how, on Lemmy, you think that it's more likely that I'm actually a deep cover foreign asset, then a citizen who's happened to have worked in the disgustingly large multi-billion dollar campaign industry.
But please, tell me more about how your intimate knowledge of our body politic is more nuanced and insightful then mine.
You call me angry and disgruntled, but your political philosophy is "I'll compromise on literally anything, as long as I'm told it's for the greater good".
Trump would be awful, but he's not the end of the line of awful candidates and I'd rather take my chances with a DNC that is responsive to it's base, and not it's donors. That can't happen unless they fear their base will pull support, which is why they've trained them to always compromise.
Isn't it funny though, that the compromise only works in one direction: to the right and for the benefit of the donor class.
Who did Bernie Sanders endorse and vote for since 2016? Did he follow your strategy, or something smarter?
Well, considering that he lost then, and then lost again the same way 4 years later, he's not really the benchmark of effective political strategy that you're acting like he is.
I'm guessing you would have/did vote for him though. Good luck with your strategy of not even playing the same game
....what? No, seriously, I'm usually pretty good at deciphering gibberish, but I think I need some clarification here....
I understand the part where you're calling me a Bernie voter, and intending that as insult.
But I'm not clear on the part about me not playing the same game as a sitting senator, and former presidential candidate... because of course I'm not...
Am I supposed to be? If so, how?
Being a Bernie voter isn't an insult and that was certainly not my intent, I voted for him too in the primaries. But being a Bernie voter/progressive and then completely ignoring his advice to vote for the actual Dem candidate (Hillary/Biden) becuase you have a super secret strategy that involves effectively not voting, is what I would describe as a gibberish strategy. Pretty sure he understands the stakes and strategies much better than you. The game I'm referring to is our highly imperfect first past the post system, and you're not playing it.
The part I don't understand is why you some folks feel their vote is so sacred that they can't compromise for someone like Biden given the stakes. It's just a vote, I give them out like candy to whoever is better. It's super simple, it's not a marriage vow and it doesn't define you as a human. Real, actual harm will come to our allies with Trump and your thinking implies they're an acceptable sacrifice. Women are literally dying because Trump appointed 3 dog shit SCOTUS justices. Bernie doesn't agree with your strategy, AOC doesn't, but you seem to think you know something special that progressive leadership doesn't.
What super secret strategy? I've laid out my very simple belief on the matter, repeatedly, and on a public forum.
If my vote isn't a big deal, than why are you devoting so much time trying to convince me otherwise?
I never said don't vote. I've said I won't support the establishment DNC, or Biden, but that I will continue to support progressive/left candidates who would be beholden to voters, and not special interests/machine politics.
Compromise to what end? That is what you're not understanding. When in the last 30 years has that not lead to us being worse off?
I get it, you're happy to manage our decline into a full blown neoliberal gilded age 2.0 hellscape, on the off chance that it helps to staves off full blown fascism. I'm not judging you for making that choice, but I do disagree with it.
I don't see how the unending shifting of the Democratic party to the right, just to remain slightly to the left the GOP, doesn't end up with the exact situation you're trying to fend off.
So, as I said, I'm going to use the only voice I have, my vote, to support the only viable path that might prevent the outcome that you claim you're trying to avoid, but really, are just easing into a bit more gently.
I'm not trying to convince you, I'm offering a counterpoint to the other 3 people that might read this and otherwise think your strategy goes without question. I just don't understand how you can support a bunch of progressives that largely, if not exclusively, vote for Biden/Hillary as needed, seemingly agreeing with them in everything except this critical point where they make obviously correct choices to vote for least harm. Why wouldn't you just listen to their reasoning? What makes you think you're right on this?
The reason things get shittier is because shitty people like Bush and Trump get elected. The way to defeat them is to actually defeat them, not let them win and hope for a progressive uprising. I don't see how moving backwards helps you move forwards, that's all.
Ok, I will think on that.
If we're waiting for one party to collapse, it should probably be the fascists.
Likewise, a concerted effort should be able to change the direction of a party. I honestly can't say if that's feasible in American politics.
It's happened multiple times in the past couple decades. Look at how the tea party took over the Republican party. There have also been the blue dog democrats and the Bernie social Dems. They haven't taken over the way the tea party has, but they've both tugged at the direction of the party.