this post was submitted on 26 Dec 2023

196 points (94.1% liked)

World News

38977 readers

3512 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]

Recommendations

How to spot Misinformation and Propaganda

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

196

‘Don’t worry about me. I’m fine’: Kremlin critic Navalny from Arctic jail (www.aljazeera.com)

submitted 10 months ago by [email protected] to c/world

23 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 23 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] RizzRustbolt 17 points 10 months ago

Damn...

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago

It sounded goofy, silly for what has happened for him. I like his attitude and him being alive. That he thinks we can get a little bit of encouragement, comfort, from him of all people. Some jokes, some laughs, even untimely. While he, as many politically active people there, would meet the holiday season choked in a concrete bag, completely alone. He doesn't deserve this prolonged torture, but I feel hopeful for he is still not broken. That means, we too can have a hope.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Dude aged 50 years in like 3.

[+] folilzodos -7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

It’s good that he opposes Putin but because of that people seem to completely overlook the fact that this guy is a right wing populist himself.

Edit: because people apparently cba to read the article, let me add some additional info: Amnesty International’s Moscow office reluctantly rescinded his “prisoner of conscience“ status. Russians who complained about e.g. his anti immigrant stance, equating immigrants to „cockroaches“ or dressing as a dentist and making a metaphor that immigrants were a pain that needs to be removed. He hasn’t distanced himself from these statements. Therefore, even though Amnesty International initially dismissed those complaints they had to comply because there were just too many complaints.

[–] rdri 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

That's not true and it wouldn't matter even if it was true. You got to know a lot about Russian current culture to understand the specifics.

It's useless to apply current standards of developed countries on Russia in order to approve some politician. Russia needs to change before that could even work. I imagine Navalny could've been one of drivers of that process.

Also Amnesty reversed that decision since. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/05/statement-on-alexei-navalnys-status-as-prisoner-of-conscience-2/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I don't see why it is useless to apply the standards of developed countries, if you're a right wing shithead with horrible views, you're a right wing shithead with horrible views. Just because you are imprisoned by a bigger shithead doesn't excuse your views or actions.

We ofc should keep advocating for his release under spurious charges that he finds himself under as we should across the world.

[–] rdri -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Someone calling you a shithead doesn't make you a shithead, simple as that.

People not having a slightest idea about what people in Russia would think about what they assume by "right wing" won't help Russian people at all, they would only confuse themselves.

The reason, though, is that by telling other people who has no idea about how Russia works to note how another Russian person is bad by their standards (also doing no work to actually research and confirm that) will only make it much less likely for any Russian person to be liked or accepted by the rest of the world. Not because they are really that bad or stuff, but because of only high probability of people getting misled by crap articles and Kremlin propaganda and then refusing to do proper research.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'm not on Lemmy to convince Russians about what opinion they should hold tho. I'm stating an opinion about the matter on a public forum not exclusively for Russians.

We shouldn't delude ourselves on the outside that this is a good person, even if he is an improvement on the current leadership. That is my point, because you see this time and time again, to the point that the outside world starts to essentially simp for the slightly less shit person.

[–] rdri 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

And that is how I interpreted it.

Okay let me try it differently. Imagine a perfect clone of Navalny gained full power in your country. You know he is a right wing shithead and will inevitably do what you expect and afraid him to do. Can you list a few things that he will do?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why?

What does that impossible thought experiment achieve?

I could just tell people to have nuance and not fall prey to idolising a right wing bigot who is less shit than the right wing bigot that imprisoned him?

Again this message is to those outside of Russia, some random thought experiment that goes nowhere but to continue this conversation and give you the ego to go "well ackshually" means shit all in the scheme of things.

[–] rdri 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It goes a long way that you are avoiding.

You basically refuse to explain what could happen that would constitute for "bad" or "unwanted" if Navalny is supported.

You refuse to explain what exactly do you mean by right wing (exact bad stuff about it) and instead rely on your readers' own interpretation to convince them that person should not be supported.

By providing exact example you could be more specific. And I could find some stream piece with Navalny's point of view on something exact to show you that he would not actually do what you think he would do.

If you still want to avoid exact examples and only rely on those old clips about immigrants then you have no chance of proving me wrong. In his presidential program there was a proposition to require visa from them, and this can't be viewed as bad. Else you'd have to tell me countries like US/EU are controlled by right wing shitheads already. It's like telling your readers "hey don't forget, this guy seems to be at least as bad as your own government, don't support him".

[–] folilzodos 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

If you’d read the article, you’d have seen that those complaints didn’t come from Westerners, but rather from Russians who complained about e.g. his anti immigrant stance, equating immigrants to „cockroaches“ or dressing as a dentist and making a metaphor that immigrants were a pain that needs to be removed. He hasn’t distanced himself from these statements. Therefore Amnesty International’s Moscow office reluctantly rescinded his “prisoner of conscience“ status.

You pretend like nationalist authoritarianism is a phenomenon exclusive to Russia, or like this would be some kind of special case. No it is not. I come from a place with equally rotten politics and we have people being marked as terrorists nowadays who were pushed as freedom fighters by the Westerns back in the day because they were against their enemy. The Americans conveniently ignored all their fascistic tendencies or said something like you do about having to understand the specific culture, etc. to justify supporting those people. And now they’re backing someone else to get rid of the people they once supported, again ignoring anything that doesn’t fit into their narrative. If you now think you know where I’m from, believe me you don’t, this is such a common trope it has happened in too many places. Your situation is not unique and if you support a fascist you get fascism.

[–] rdri -1 points 10 months ago

didn’t come from Westerners, but rather from Russians who complained

If you read the article and do some research it really comes from either Kremlin propaganda or people not knowing who Navalny really is.

his anti immigrant stance, equating immigrants to „cockroaches“ or dressing as a dentist and making a metaphor that immigrants were a pain that needs to be removed

And? You don't know that about 70% of Russian population use much more cruel words about immigrants every day? You don't know that there is a real problem with salaries in Russia that could be affected if Russia required proper visa from immigrants (something that a lot of other countries already do but you seem to not complanin about their immigrant stance)?

If you assume a politician who did and said that much as Navalny towards immigrants will do some real unimaginable shit towards them if he gets power... I think any Russian will tell you that you are wrong.

You pretend like nationalist authoritarianism is a phenomenon exclusive to Russia

Excuse me what? Where did I?

Your situation is not unique and if you support a fascist you get fascism.

I know Russia's situation is not unique. That said, Navalny is unique as a political person still.
Surprise, you already have fascism in Russia even without Navalny. And there will be much more as long as Putin (at least) is in power.

Not that I hope that Navalny will at some point will get any power to do anything. But people lose too much when they judge others by single episodes from their past (that aren't even getting interpreted properly, heh).

[–] Snoozemumrik 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Not sure why the downvotes. It's true.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

Nobody will get popular in ruzzzzzia if they're not at least a bit extreme.

[–] folilzodos 0 points 10 months ago

The Enemy of my enemy is my friend I guess? Maybe a lot of people who don’t want to hear it or Russians who don’t care about his racism, idk.

[+] [email protected] -43 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This guy has to be one of the dimmest folks I have ever seen. Putin straight tried to kill him, failed and the world did nothing and yet he still turned himself in as some type of martyr. The world was going to do nothing and they were going to torture him and trump up any charges they felt to ensure he never sees the light of day again and for what? Nothing.

He could have done more even in exile.

[–] cabron_offsets 95 points 10 months ago (3 children)

He knowingly martyred himself. Martyrs can sometimes effect massive change. I wouldn’t have done the same, and clearly, neither would you. But it doesn’t make his decision dim.

Real life is far more nuanced than your pedestrian analysis.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago

And if the tides turn, the population will see him as someone who doesn't shy away from danger.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Yeah, get a car, op!

[–] [email protected] -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

He had a dry run with the attempt on his life. He knew nothing would come of it. That the rest of the world would do nothing.

Hell Russia has since pushed the boundaries much further with no recourse.

I can respect that he’s principled and still recognize the total lack of forethought in the move.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

So it would've been better to escape to the west and have all his work and ambitions for his country thrown into the toilet because he handed the "I'm just a puppet in the west" gift to Putin. That's more of a Yanukovych thing.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

I’m not sure he’s the dim one.