Trans Teen Hatches Nefarious Plot To Undergo Years Of Medical Treatments And Counseling To Win At Swimming : theonion

[–] Potatos_are_not_friends 98 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Not just any swimming, but some amateur or extracurricular school event!

[–] [email protected] 83 points 1 year ago (2 children)

TERFs when I win a game of Battleship:

[–] doppelgangmember 10 points 1 year ago

😂🤣😂

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Everyone knows transitioning makes you clairvoyant, you damn cheat!

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[+] cybersandwich 47 points 1 year ago (33 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

You realize that most trans women undergoing HRT have less testosterone in their systems than many of their cisgender competitors, right? Women naturally have some testosterone in their body; if they have PCOS, then they have a lot (in comparison to other cis women). Trans women on HRT take medicine to block testosterone, so while their body might generate the most of all, the amount bioavailable to them after the medicine neutralizes it is less than non-PCOS cis women have. If the sports debate was about testosterone providing an unfair advantage, then we would ban cis women with PCOS from competing, but we don't.

In the case of teenagers, it's even simpler - contrary to propaganda, very very few doctors are willing to put a minor on HRT. Instead, they simply give them puberty blockers to delay the onset of puberty until they're over 18 and can decide for themselves whether to go on HRT or not. So, a 17yo trans girl is developmentally equivalent to a 10yo boy - her muscles are massively under developed compared to any of her cis competitors.

So whether adult or teen, a trans woman winning at sports is not someone with an unfair advantage; rather, it's someone with a massive disadvantage managing to win despite her handicap.

[–] capital 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is current testosterone the only consideration? Or could having higher testosterone earlier, even though you’re on par with peers now, give you a musculoskeletal advantage?

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Bro I'm weak as shit after 1.5 years on HRT. All the musculoskeletal advantage I have is kinda wide shoulders for a girl.

It was genuinely funny how i couldn't do pushups or open jars easily anymore.

[–] capital 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s not a useless anecdote but I was looking more for data on this, if it exists.

I’d also have questions about your ability to build muscle as compared to someone who was assigned female at birth.

As an aside, this is very much outside my area of expertise and if I’ve used the wrong terms during this discussion I’m open to being corrected.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

There are some published studies but I won't link them because they are very specific. They tracked thigh or quad muscles specifically. Feel free to look them up though.

Building muscle is a lot more difficult for me. You could politely ask any trans people if you have more questions about transitioning.

Also don't worry about saying the wrong thing, you're all good.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If we're considering testosterone to be a PED, perhaps we should ban everyone from sports...

On a more serious note: why not advocate for putting people into "testosterone-level groups", similar to how boxing, etc, do it with weight classes? Rather than just excluding trans women from competing.

I also feel I have to ask: how do you feel about your niece losing in competitions to cis women who have biological advantages, such as higher (natural) testosterone levels, longer limbs, bigger hands, smaller busts, etc?

[–] cybersandwich 29 points 1 year ago (4 children)

There is more to it than just "current testosterone levels" because (like you mention in your question at the end) biological birth sex as a male would likely afford the person with a larger frame, muscles/skeletal structure, bigger hands, longer legs, etc.

And to answer your question: no I wouldn't have a problem with cis women competing with each other. Obviously, natural differences exist and set people apart. But sport and competition is predicated on a foundation of fair play, personal excellence, and mutual respect among participants.

Any artificial advantage or thumb on the scale, for whatever reason, undermines the integrity of the competition, devalues the effort of athletes, and erodes the spirit of the game.

Naturally occurring differences like extra testosterone, height, or flexibility might be advantages but they aren't unfair because they are inherent to the individual's unique physiology and not externally imposed or artificially enhanced. That's the line we've drawn for sport and competition for centuries.

So no, that wouldn't bother me at all.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just a note, there's some studies that have shown that a massive proportion of high tier female athletes actually have chromeosone issues that would put them into the intersex category.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My niece is a competitive swimmer. If a trans woman kept her from winning the competitions she's trained so hard for, getting up at 4am for practice, spending weekends training or at meets, etc, thats absolute horse shit.

So if that trans woman also worked hard, got up at 4am for practice, and also spent weekends training and going to meets, she doesn't deserve to win after her own hard work?

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[–] chitak166 7 points 1 year ago

Honestly, it should be up to whoever is organizing the event.

If you have a problem with how the hosts run their competition, withdraw and/or make your own.

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[–] Serinus 46 points 1 year ago (10 children)

This is the weakest of the arguments for trans rights. There's a reason they want everyone to focus on it.

We shouldn't be allowing them to frame the conversation around the one area where identifying as whatever you want actually affects other people.

[–] rockSlayer 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It actually doesn't. Studies show that trans women perform on par with cis women in athletics. This wishy-washy attitude essentially amounts to "you can only participate if you lose"

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago (15 children)

Can you link such studies, because I don't understand how that could possibly be true

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Here's an NPR article interviewing a known geneticist and talking about Trans Athletes. Their general consensus is that there is a lack of data to make an assertion one way or the other for if trans athletes have an edge. And that's without taking into account the vast differences between each individual trans person and where they're at genetically/hormonally. Trans athletes aren't a monolith that are all the same, they can have fundamentally different circumstances and genetics between each person.

Honestly any automatic ban of trans-athletes is stupid. Michael Phelps has a natural genetic advantage when it comes to swimming, but no one of note is coming for his gold medals or saying he can't compete.

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[–] TerryMathews 28 points 1 year ago (15 children)

These people also never consider that they're measuring the wrong thing. If they're taking the position that the effects of testosterone from birth in trans M-to-F kids gives them an unfair advantage due to bone density and muscle mass, then they're failing to take into account that there are a number of natural health conditions that produce elevated testosterone levels in women as well.

I'm not saying this to be funny, but women with stubble especially around the chin often have elevated T levels, often due to PCOS. There truly are some women who are "built like a man" and they're not trans - at least certainly not in the way we use the term today. They're natural, their bodies just work differently.

Banning trans kids isn't going to level the playing field in the way they say they want to. Measuring things that testosterone affects like bone density would.

[–] rockSlayer 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yep. T level testing was a popular trans exclusionary test until the transphobes learned that there's significant overlap in t levels between trans women and cis women.

Edit: lol looks like we upset the transphobes

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[–] themeatbridge 25 points 1 year ago

Not to mention the bigotry, the prejudice, the psychological trauma of existing in a world where people call you evil and an abomination and a cheat for merely wanting to play sports.

[–] derf82 18 points 1 year ago (21 children)

Pick your battles, people. Insisting that trans women be allowed to compete in women’s sports is just not a winning argument, even among people that might be willing to otherwise oppose other trans restrictions. All it does in reinforce anti-trans attitudes.

This isn’t some invented fiction. Here is a trans powerlifter that just came in and started shattering records.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

Aha, wait until she takes up chess, darts, and competitive crocheting... RIP cis women :'(

[–] MotoAsh 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Haven't some particularly haenous talking heads on TV literally already said this? Perhaps not in directly declaratory language at someone, because that's begging for a defamation suit, though I have absolutely heard Republican scum make this exact accusation in the general case several times against trans people.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Wow, the ~~phrenologists~~ ~~race realists~~ transphobes fell for this hard.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This was one of the Onion's more brilliant articles. Absolutely loved it. I showed it to someone who rants about trans girls in sports and they got quiet. The truly good Onion articles make the object of their satire instantly recognize the logical fallacies in their own argument and get uncomfortable.

[–] theangryseal 8 points 1 year ago

The author of this article was laying in bed and thought, “AHA! I can set the internet on fire!”

I love it.

The Onion

The Onion