this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2023

381 points (94.2% liked)

Atheism

4119 readers

3 users here now

Community Guide

Archive Today will help you look at paywalled content the way search engines see it.

Statement of Purpose

This is a support and conversation community for people who don't believe in gods.
Superstition hucksters have no reason to subscribe or post here at all.
If you are looking to debate or proselytize, options will be linked lower in the sidebar.

Acceptable

Honest questions or conversations.
Discussions on parenting or advice.
Struggles, frustrations, coming out.
Atheist memes. We can have fun!
News headlines relevant to atheism.

Unacceptable

Depending on severity, you might be warned before adverse action is taken.

Anything against site rules.
Illegal and/or NSFW material.
Troll posts and comments. There will be no attempt to explain what that means.
Leading questions, agenda pushing, or disingenuous attempts to bait members.
Personal attacks or flaming.

Inadvisable

Self promotion or upvote farming.
Excessive shitposting or off-topic discussion.

Application of warnings or bans will be subject to moderator discretion. Feel free to appeal. If changes to the guidelines are necessary, they will be adjusted.

If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathizer or a resemblant of a group that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of any other group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you you will be banned on sight.

Provable means able to provide proof to the moderation, and, if necessary, to the community.

 ~ /c/nostupidquestions

If you want your space listed in this sidebar and it is especially relevant to the atheist or skeptic communities, PM DancingPickle and we'll have a look!

Connect with Atheists

Matrix: #atheism:envs.net

Help and Support Links

Streaming Media

This is mostly YouTube at the moment. Podcasts and similar media - especially on federated platforms - may also feature here.

Orgs, Blogs, Zines

Mainstream

Bibliography

Start here...

...proceed here.

Proselytize Religion

Convince an Atheist

From Reddit

As a community with an interest in providing the best resources to its members, the following wiki links are provided as historical reference until we can establish our own.

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

Rhynoplaz

381

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis, 1935 (lemmy.world)

submitted 2 years ago by HLMenckenFan to c/atheism

37 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 20 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] bellatesla 15 points 2 years ago

And a Bible on top...

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sinclair-lewis-on-fascism/

Although I agree, it's already been happening for years.

[–] synapse1278 12 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The flag thing can apply to any county. Using patriotism as a catalyst for xenophobia is part of fascism 101. Looking at all right-wing party in European countries, they will always be ultra-nationaliste (perverted version of patriotism) and anti-EU.I find it disgusting how they appropriate themself the country's symboles and give it a highly political connotation. I find it very sad these assholes can make me asham of my home-country's flag...

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Using patriotism as a catalyst for xenophobia

It's been known for a very long time.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in American, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." --Nazi leader Hermann Goering,

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If there is a good use of patriotism, I don't know it.

[–] lemmington_steele 1 points 2 years ago

solidarity in times of imminent existential threat (e.g. in the middle of an actual war)

[–] FlyingSquid 10 points 2 years ago

No one, however, expected the judiciary to be leading that charge.

[–] Bristlecone 5 points 2 years ago

No kidding dude, it's scary how oblivious they are to it at this point

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

https://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Warning-Madeleine-Albright/dp/0062802186/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=34GTRF8FUQM94&keywords=albright+fascism&qid=1688409460&sprefix=albright+fashism%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-1

[+] [email protected] -21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] PizzaMan 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Fascism is inherently a right wing ideology. You're basically making claims of a married bachelor, which is just silly.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

It's not even an ideology. It's more like a pathological fault in human psychology that can be exploited by charismatic authoritarian leaders. While fascists always use anti-left rhetoric and their promise to return to the good old days appeals to conservatives, I hesitate to even place fascism on the left/right dichotomy at all. I prefer to assume good faith from the reasonable people I disagree no matter where they fall on the political spectrum -- but fascism never acts in good faith. I think it is important to make a distinction between a real right wing ideology (however much we might disagree with it) and something purely malevolent like fascism, kleptocracy, regulatory capture, etc.

[–] PizzaMan 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It’s not even an ideology

I was using the term rather loosely, but even but even with a more strict definition of "ideology", I think it fits.

I hesitate to even place fascism on the left/right dichotomy at all.

I don't think left/right is a dichotomy. If we are to take the political compass' method of organizing these things, where there is a left/right axis, and an authoritarian/libertarian, fascism is a right wing, authoritarian ideology:

Graph

Leftism/progressive ideologies generally espouse social equality, egalitarianism, and opposition to social hierarchy. The right/conservative ideologies generally espouse the exact opposite, that social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable. That's ultimately why fascism falls on the right on the left/right axis.

I think it is important to make a distinction between a real right wing ideology

All ideologies are "real'. Some are just incredibly terrible for humanity, some less so, and some are actually good. It's all on a spectrum.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

There are certainly more useful models to explain fascism than by interpreting it as a meaningful ideology. Authoritarians don't perform fascism because they understand and believe in it. People acting ignorantly or at cynical the manipulation of others are not following any ideology.

I don’t think left/right is a dichotomy.

But then you cite a diagram with a left/right dichotomy. Yes, there are other dimensions on the diagram, but it does plot in terms of left and right.

Things governments do that you will not find on any similar diagram: regulatory capture, kleptocracy, genocide, taxation without representation, raiding and pillaging foreign countries, executing children, nuclear terrorism. Those are all outside valid political discourse. Just like you could not put the moon or the feeling you get when you smell the rain on the left/right spectrum. It just doesn't make sense to do so.

I argue that fascism is more at home among those things than among anything you can call left or right. All things that fall on the spectrum somewhere have something in common and I argue that fascism lacks it: it is not valid political speech.

Further, I argue that it works against our goals of reaching a fair and safe compromise for everyone when we lump our erstwhile political opponents in with people who are simply doing evil.

You don't have to agree with me, but you haven't shown that I'm wrong.

[–] PizzaMan 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

But then you cite a diagram with a left/right dichotomy.

The above graph is a spectrum, and it was just an example.

Those are all outside valid political discourse.

To be clear, I do not think that all sections of the above graph are valid political discourse. It's simply a way to categorize.

I argue that fascism is more at home among those things than among anything you can call left or right. All things that fall on the spectrum somewhere have something in common and I argue that fascism lacks it: it is not valid political speech.

I agree with that, which is why those things you listed, regulatory capture, kleptocracy, genocide, taxation without representation, raiding and pillaging foreign countries, executing children, nuclear terrorism, are all things that are accounted for with the authoritarian part of that spectrum.

Further, I argue that it works against our goals of reaching a fair and safe compromise for everyone when we lump our erstwhile political opponents in with people who are simply doing evil.

There is no such thing as a fair and safe compromise for everyone when fascists exist. There is no compromise for genocide. Somebody is going to have to be unhappy no matter what.

You don't have to include our political opponents and fascists on the graph if you don't want. I am simply stating the fact that if all is to be categorized, fascism is an ultra authoritarian, right wing ideology. That is the most accurate it can be described given current definitions.

You don’t have to agree with me, but you haven’t shown that I’m wrong.

That's not how the burden of proof works.

[+] aldamar -22 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Fascism can’t go anywhere since it’s dead

[–] PizzaMan 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How is it dead when stormfront.org is still around?

[–] FlyingSquid 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not to mention you have a bunch of fascists vying to out-fascist each other while trying to get the GOP nomination.

[–] PizzaMan 6 points 2 years ago

The list is endless really. No matter which example you pick, there will always be another.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

One (1) fascist died on 01/06/2021 during an attempted coup by Trump supporters to overturn the election by trying to apprehend and assassinate their own party's former Vice President. The rest were paper tigers who ran away like little bitches after she caught a bullet to the neck.

load more comments