this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
216 points (94.3% liked)

Games

16861 readers
1586 users here now

Video game news oriented community. No NanoUFO is not a bot :)

Posts.

  1. News oriented content (general reviews, previews or retrospectives allowed).
  2. Broad discussion posts (preferably not only about a specific game).
  3. No humor/memes etc..
  4. No affiliate links
  5. No advertising.
  6. No clickbait, editorialized, sensational titles. State the game in question in the title. No all caps.
  7. No self promotion.
  8. No duplicate posts, newer post will be deleted unless there is more discussion in one of the posts.
  9. No politics.

Comments.

  1. No personal attacks.
  2. Obey instance rules.
  3. No low effort comments(one or two words, emoji etc..)
  4. Please use spoiler tags for spoilers.

My goal is just to have a community where people can go and see what new game news is out for the day and comment on it.

Other communities:

Beehaw.org gaming

Lemmy.ml gaming

lemmy.ca pcgaming

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
all 48 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 147 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I've read similar things about the development of Morrowind, about creative decisions needing to get past Todd, in this excellent article about its development.

Here are some quotes from Michael Kirkbride:

The game was originally set in the Summerset Isles. And then we got bored and decided, “Man, this is really boring. How about we put it in a volcano with like giant bugs everywhere?” And people were like, “What?” So Todd Howard — the easiest way to get anything past Todd, at that time, was you basically just had to say “Star Wars.” Which was true for me and anybody then. So I was like, “The game should be like Dark Crystal meets Star Wars.” And he was immediately hooked. I got all the bug creatures I ever needed, we moved it from Summerset Isles to this weird dark-elf place on the map, and we just went from there.

I used to have this thing with Todd, because he was one of the ones that’s like, “Let’s not make it too weird.” So I’d bamboozle him. There was a period where I would actually draw two different versions of a monster — the one that was weird and that I wanted to be in the game, and then one that was fucking crazy. And so I’d go to Todd, and I’m like, “OK, I think I’ve got the mid-level creature set.” And I’d show him a picture. He’d be like, “Nah, dude, that’s crazy.” Then I’d go back to my office and I would act like I was drawing something new, and I’d just come back with the original drawing of what I really wanted to be in there. Like, “Hey, is this what you were thinking?” And he’d be all, “Oh, yeah, that’s much better. That’s great.”

I can definitely believe his influence has become immense following the studio's success - though it definitely feels like he needs to hand the reins over to somebody else.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 year ago (3 children)

That tactic for his crazy monster designs is a classic psychological trick, but I can't remember what it's called. It's a thing where you're more likely to get someone's help by first asking for more help than you want/need, and then when rejected, you can scale it back, and they'll more likely concede

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Kirkbride got such a wild and interesting take on fantasy, it's a shame his influence on elder scrolls have diminished with time.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

The loss of Ken Rolston and Kirkbride and the rise of Emil Pagliarulo is what fucked the elder scrolls writing.

You shouldn't hand your big epic fantasy world to a guy who couldn't give a fuck about the lore or stepping on the toes of other writers.

[–] bl4ckblooc 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Honestly I don’t think anyone should have that kind of power over a AAA game these days.

[–] [email protected] 72 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I disagree, AAA especially would benefit fromsomeone with that kind of power at the helm. Most AAA games feel like committee games, no clear vision besides appealing to the lowest denominator. The reason Kojima games are so praised and polarizing is because he has this kind of power to make sure his vision gets realized.

If everything has to go through Todd and the end result is Starfield then that just means Todd isn't suited to have that much power.

[–] bl4ckblooc 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I would say that someone like Kojima is the outlier. There are not many developers like him that can make all the decisions about a game and make the right ones/make decisions that gamers actually agree with. Even Death Stranded wasn’t as big of a hit as people expected it to be. It has developed a large cult following, but it didn’t quite have the same fan appreciation when it launched.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are not many developers like him that can make all the decisions about a game and make the right ones/make decisions that gamers actually agree with.

Care to give any examples of devs in his position that don't make good decisions?

[–] bl4ckblooc 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well Todd Howard is a good example. And I have very little faith in whatever Peter Molyneux puts out next. Thankfully there are many example because not many people are given the type of control over a game that this articles is talking about.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I personally don't think Todd Howard is a good example to back your point

[–] Zoomboingding 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It works pretty well for Miyamoto and Kojima.

[–] bl4ckblooc 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course, they are two of the top game directors in the industry. But I think you will find a lot more examples of games where it doesn’t work.

[–] Zoomboingding 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Well you did say anyone

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

And Miyazaki

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

That just seems too hilarious to be true, specially the first part. Specially given that a lot of the lore preceded Morrowind and already created the setting for the place it would be set in: https://images.uesp.net/thumb/3/39/DF-map-Tamriel.jpg/400px-DF-map-Tamriel.jpg

[–] TheOgreChef 7 points 1 year ago

Wasn’t there a report where some of the devs called him a seagull because he would just fly by whatever you were working on and shit all over it? Maybe I’m misremembering who that’s attributed to though, there are lots of terrible people in games.

[–] [email protected] 76 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He's the game director, it makes sense that things would go through him.

[–] woelkchen 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He’s the game director, it makes sense that things would go through him.

Things: yes. All things: No. That's micromanagement.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But we are talking about design decisions here, it would be micromanagement if he was getting in the middle of how things are done, not the end result.

[–] woelkchen 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But we are talking about design decisions here

Not every single piece of design should require signing off by a single person, though, not in large teams. If you look at interviews from Nintendo studios or 2nd party developers how Miyamoto oversees game development, it's more like pointing out which game mechanics he things work better and should be emphasized and otherwise he's super hands off and for the most part it's to the benefit of Nintendo games.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Read the article carefully though, it's mostly trying to be inflammatory. It seems ideas outside of what Bethesda usually does end up having to go through Todd because he is good at putting himself in the end user's shoes even if he doesn't want to be the guy with the final say in everything.

It seems more like something that happened over time as they became successful.

[–] Sylvartas 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

On big projects like this, the game director isn't also the lead game designer. Or at least they shouldn't. That's the whole point of having these 2 positions in the first place

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It doesn't sound like he's designing. He's only (dis)approving the designers work.

[–] Sylvartas 7 points 1 year ago

Yeah tbh the article doesn't really help to determine how much he's micromanaging but that's basically where the issue lies. According to the example in the article it does sound like he's stepping on the art director's boundaries regarding creatures design though

[–] Zehzin 58 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The dev is far nicer to Todd than the title implies.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago

Yeah. He even says Todd didn't like to be in this position, and that's why he would hate him saying that. But clickbait's gonna clickbait.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Yes that's probably what allowed games like Skyrim to be so good instead of feeling like they were designed by a corporate committee.

[–] Son_of_dad 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People bitch about him but there's a reason his games are so popular.

[–] Melonpoly 1 points 1 year ago

Brand image?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, I'm not mad at this. Games should have a leader calling the shots. I think it's why Kojima's games are always so great.

[–] LemmyIsFantastic 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am for one SHOCKED that an executive doesn't let developer do whatever the fuck they want. SHOCKED!

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Especially for games that took like 10 years to make and cost like a billion dollars lol.

[–] TheBat 17 points 1 year ago

16 times the decisions!

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

They never should have let the Barbarian lead the party.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

https://www.piped.video/watch?v=JDP8QvuXn0g&t=934s

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

[–] kemsat 5 points 1 year ago

Shoulda told him to build a new Star Wars game engine…

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 year ago

Okay so I’m gonna skip The Elder Scrolls VI - aisomnoim