When will we, as a class, gain back the wealth we created?
this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
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I wanna move there. Anyone have any odea how to get started? I'm a software developer.
While the 4 day week is undeniably great for employees, I do wonder how it can be translated into some businesses or industries.
Restaurants for example who have mostly part time staff - do they just suddenly get paid more?
Or self employed professionals ...
I'm no expert but I get a sense that Germany still revolves very much around their auto industry. So if you work in that world everything is tailor made for your situation, if not, well easiest would be to get an expert that can navigate the exceptions.
we could also work way less if we haven't had to pay for rent. build social housing and gov sell appartements for 50k€. people retire at 50. profit. also make highschool graduation at 15, and joining professional life at 18-20. 30 years of work, pay 700€ per month for a 70m², then after 7 years appartement is all yours. building complex should last 2 generations, then renovation. rinse and repeat.
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Nah.
Those wait lists are directly caused by piss-poor wages and undervaluing of workers. Upping, downing, rolling weekly hours into a tube and dancing on them won't affect those issues a jot.
If you think your population is ageing, try opening the immigration.
And how about the industries who have been maximally efficient this whole time making full use of 40+ hour weeks? Do they get the extra 25% pay boost?
There are plenty of studies proving people working less hours still do the same or even more and/or better work then those doing more hours. If pay was linked to efficiency gains over the last decades our pay would be considerably higher.
Instead we're still stuck at back breaking jobs with long hours and get looked at funny for wanting to work less and live a little more by people thinking anyone working less than 40+ hours is slacking for no other reason than tradition.
Personally, I'd still work the same amount if I worked part time instead of full time. I just stare into the void for most of the day atm.
In these posts I mostly refer to truck drivers. At least in the US there hasn't been much improvement in efficiency since it all works just the same as ever. Can't move more in a truck than max gross, and yet it's still 70 hours a week. It's all based on the legal limits on time for drivers. 14 hours from when you start until you need to take 10 hours off. 11 of those hours can be spent driving. 70 hours in 8 days, or take 34 hours off and get them all back.
Truck drivers work this schedule and are payed not by the hour but by "production" ie miles driven. The more it costs to pay these drivers the more most things people consume will cost by proxy, so most people wouldn't be happy if drivers got a decent pay bump.
If everyone else is working 32 hour weeks and truck drivers are working 70, drivers should quit and get an easier job for the same money. Once the trucking industry starts showing signs of collapse, maybe we'll actually modernize our country's rail system like we should've done decades ago. There are other alternatives to what we do now. It's just not currently profitable for companies to do so. So force them to.
When everybody complains about making shit money at 40 hours and I'm making 90k a year I'd find it hard to switch. Also, to add, what jobs are so easy to transition to and find employment? Remember when the west Virginia coal miners were told to learn to code, then had tremendous trouble finding employment anyway?
The cost does not have to be passed on to the consumer, profits can take a hit, and as infinite growth will inevitably show us that profits MUST take a hit eventually.
Everyone should want everyone to get a raise. Automation is great but if labor is involved it should be paid at a thriving wage.
The equipment and fuel continues to get more and more expensive. Just because the price of transportation goes up does not mean it's all profit.
Why do you think the equipment continues to go up in price? Is there a chance that the majority of trucking equipment is produced by a publicly traded set of companies also demanding infinite growth?
Do you think fuel will always go up in cost? What happens when trucks, like most transportation, converts to electric and most electric converts to renewable?
To be clear, your comment almost feels unrelated to my original point. If we increase the price of transportation by giving thriving wages instead of surviving wages it does not necessarily mean it has to be passed on. It can and should come from profit margins which have only gotten larger with time as every industry gets more efficient and productive. I never said that if the price of transportation goes up that it's solely profit based, or that fuel and equipment can't also in turn go up in price.
[deleted]
I think that's a fair question. Do we need to be producing as much as we are. Clearly in some industries we don't need to be, they have a lot of waste - food without better infrastructure, clothing by and large, poor quality electronics, etc.
But I think I'm equating productivity with efficiency and in that perspective I would say efficiency is king. We should work towards automation while ensuring it's benefits don't go purely to capitalists.
Certainly some of it is for consumerism, but a lot is construction materials and food. You want less houses? You want less food?
I mean this is just a reminder that the US is basically a third world country.
70 hours in 8 days is already illegal across the EU, as it violates:
- The working time directive. And
- Rules for handling heavy goods.
You can drive 90 hours every two weeks and that's it. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/856360/simplified-guidance-eu-drivers-hours-working-time-rules.pdf
I believe the size of trucks and the load has increased over time = efficiency improved. Granted my reasoning doesn't work for every field but I am always slightly annoyed when someone comes with an example were it doesn't work as an excuse to shot down less working hours for everybody.
But your example is good in another way. In a not too distant future truck drivers might be replaced by self-driving trucks with probably a long time in between with assisted driving that still needs human oversight by a driver. I know the first thought is "but jobs" but that's progress and change that has always been there. I don't know about the US but in Europe the workforce is shrinking and we could use skilled and able people almost everywhere.
We're a long way away from automated trucks. Additionally the amount hauled hasn't changed in some 80 years.
I don't think that's really true. Follow-the-leader tech is really promising. Lots of tests on open roads. Like this one.
There are predictions we're going to see level 4 self driving vehicles this decade. But yes you're right about the amount hauled.
But I've been thinking. The issue seems to be truckers are paid by the miles driven and try to squeeze in as much as legally possible. The obvious solution would be to change this.
The current issue in trucking has come about from constant connectivity. It used to be that drivers picked up a load then some time later delivered it. Now it's tracked every second and if you're late you get fined because they expect that load to get there in the exact amount of time they calculate that it's possible. I'm outside of that kind of trucking but can absolutely understand the issues.
It's called JIT (just in time).
I had a parent in the teamsters. My SO's family is largely in trucking as well. So I have sympathy and some ideas of what they're dealing with. Realistically we should be working to replace most long haul trucks with trains. More cost effective, efficient and safer.
On the short haul side, there's little reason most couldn't be hourly. The biggest roadblock being inefficiencies of loading and unloading. Many sitting for hours. Burning time and fuel waiting to load. We can pay truck drivers more while having them work less. And not drastically impact staple goods etc. Recovering a fraction of the value capitalists steal could more than cover that alone.
With the number of companies putting huge amounts of money towards towards fully robotizing distribution fleets (Walmart made a great deal about it), truckers may be facing extinction.
They've been working on it a long time and had very little progress.
I believe you but the intention exists already.
Meanwhile, there are car manufacturers aiming at building fully eletric long haul vehicles, completely autonomous.
Mercedes has already had fully successful try outs with robotized city buses that actually worked; drivers were placed on the vehicles just for passengers mental comfort but it was the machine doing all the work. I can't recall why the program was shutdown but it was considered nonetheless a huge advancement.
If enough money is put into the challenge, self driving trucks will be a thing and truckers a non-thing, faster than we can expect.
I'm in a similarly tricky position: customer service/repair. The workload will never end for us as long as people have problems with things, which they always will. In order to tackle the workload normally, we do tend to overstaff and then offer voluntary time off of the day is slower than predicted. However, to keep that model and have a 32 hour work week, they would have to hire a lot more people. Now, I would love it if they could do that, but I don't know if the powers that be want that. Furthermore, being customer service for a hated company in the USA means customers abuse you, or at least try to, regularly. The turnover rate is high because many people can't handle the abuse.