this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023

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Benjamin Netanyahu failed Israel (www.vox.com)

submitted 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) by jeffw to c/world

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[–] IchNichtenLichten 196 points 9 months ago (29 children)

This is key:

"This does not mean most Israeli Jews became ideological right-wingers; they are not, polling suggests, fully committed to the project of expanding settlements or West Bank annexation. Mostly, they wanted Netanyahu and the right to keep them safe in a way that the left seemingly couldn’t. The prime minister, in recognition of this reality, campaigned first and foremost on security — earning the moniker, perhaps self-claimed, of “Mr. Security.”

Hamas’s attack on Saturday, a mass slaughter of Israeli civilians without precedent in Israeli history, exposed a basic contradiction in this image in the most agonizing way. Simply put, there is no way now to argue that the right-wing ideological project has delivered the security most Israelis crave."

I hope there are enough moderate Israelis out there who can push for a different approach because oppression, theft of land, and brutality isn't a way forward if the aim is to stop bloodshed from both sides.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

There are plenty of moderate people in the US, but we waged a war for twenty fucking years after 9/11.

All of human history up until this day points towards a great ramping of war efforts to slaughter everyone they can get their hands on

[–] [email protected] 19 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (13 children)

The actual amount of Afghanis and Iraqis killed by coalition troops and mercenaries is pretty low. The vast, vast majority of casualties of the "War on Terror" came from disruption of services and the "Civil War" stage of the Iraq invasion which saw a hundred factions fighting each other as the US+allies mostly sat around in the Green Zone. Largely because death wasn't the point, control and power was, and as long as the oil flowed the US's goals were achieved.

I'm not saying that death toll isn't ultimately the US's fault, but I am saying your point simply isn't true, the horrors of the past operated on a scale modern humans very rarely understand at any real level, and mass death simply isn't the goal that often.

Like, the Japanese invasion of China in WW2 killed twenty million people alone, and most Americans are barely aware it was a front of the war.

Even if you believe the absolute worst of the claims of the modern Uyghur genocide, also not ethnic cleansing, it's an attempt to eradicate the culture and faith that makes them troublesome to control for the CCP. Death, yet again, is not the point, control is.

Honestly this attack from Hamas is notable precisely because killing civilians seems largely to be the point, whatever justification they feel they have.

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[–] fubo 9 points 9 months ago (6 children)

There are plenty of moderate people in the US, but we waged a war for twenty fucking years after 9/11.

The Iraq war was plainly illegitimate, based on a tissue of lies. 9/11 was not a legitimate casus belli for invading Iraq, and the WMD thing was simply a hoax.

I am not so convinced about the Afghan war. 9/11 was a mass murder perpetrated by Al-Qaeda on American soil, and the Taliban were hosting and working with Al-Qaeda. However, the "nation building" efforts were never going to work.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

After 9/11, the Taliban wanted to negotiate with the US in order to extradite Osama Bin Laden. Their demands were simple:

Stop bombing us.
Give us some evidence that Bin Laden is guilty.

Bush said 'we dont negotiate with terrists lol' and ramped up the bombing of Afghanistan, leading to the brutal invasion. Later we executed Bin Laden without a trial.

I'm not sure how you could consider any of that legitimate.

Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over - The Guardian

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

Fair enough. Bush is a war criminal, and no mistake. Still and all, Bin Laden did take responsibility for the attacks.

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[–] dx1 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I've seen this claim about "beheadings of babies" being circulated in the last day in regard to the Hamas/Israel situation. Biden "confirmed" it but then representatives walked back claims that he had even claimed to see proof. So again it's one of these situations where thousands of lives are being sacrificed behind "proof" that the public cannot see. It may have happened, it may not have, but how on earth are we supposed to know without proof?

The mentality people have that we should just take it on faith is absolutely baffling to me. We have stringent standards for proof in the criminal trial of a single person, but when it comes to waging wars against countries of millions of people, the standards drop down to zero. There is so much danger in just entrusting people in power to dictate to the public what happened and what didn't and not have any way to verify it. The stakes are beyond reasoning so the standard for proof to justify any actions should be absolute.

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[–] dangblingus 36 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Respectfully, anyone pushing for an ethnostate is a nationalistic right wing person by definition.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago

Respectfully, everyone is living in a world where the Overton Window has already moved to the right substantially. Roe v Wade being overturned, Trump holding sway over Republican voters despite being a clearly contentious demagogue, England and Brexit, England leaving a succession of ever-worsening Tories in power. Etc etc.

I'm not playing whataboutism, I'm illustrating a point.

[–] madcaesar 23 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Obama killed Bin Laden.

Bush let the largest terrorist attack ever on US soil happen.

Yet people were calling for Republicans to keep us safe....

Conservatives all over the world seem to be dumb as bricks, including Israel.

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[–] Wrench 23 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Unfortunately, human nature is to go the other direction. This event will lead to more extreme view points. Those that professed compassion and understanding are likely to join the hate train if a loved one was brutally killed or maimed.

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[–] jarfil 16 points 9 months ago (3 children)

oppression, theft of land, and brutality isn't a way forward if the aim is to stop bloodshed from both sides.

Unfortunately, the aim is to:

from the one side, to have a State of Israel on land promised by the British to the Arabs
on the other, to have an Islamic State on land taken by the Zionists from the British
on another, to have the Armageddon begin and trigger the second coming of Christ
on still another, to have all the infidels exterminated and have the whole world convert to Islam

Stopping bloodshed is not part of either side, some of the sides are actually asking for more bloodshed 🤦

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago

from the one side, to have a State of Israel on land promised by the British to the Arabs

on the other, to have an Islamic State on land taken by the Zionists from the British

This is a little confused... The British promised a state to both. The land the Jews lived on was purchased from absentee landlords who didn't care who was living on it, first from the Ottoman Empire and later from Britain. The partition plan was proposed to make good on Britain's dual promises - it won a vote in the UN despite the entire Arab League voting against it. Jews celebrated, Arabs protested, there was a civil war that turned into the Israeli war for independence, and the British decided they weren't going to enforce the partition plan and fucked off to drink tea and reminisce about the good old days of starving Indians to death and getting the Chinese addicted to opium.

[–] IchNichtenLichten 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It does seem hopeless but I grew up during "the troubles" in Ireland, there was a long time where it seemed peace was an impossibility.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 9 months ago

Just goes to show yet another time that fascism isn't a solution for anything.

[–] [email protected] 49 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Golda Meir lost her position due to intel failures regarding Yom Kippur war. this was a shocking failure of intelligence and basic border control. Meir lost her position only after the guns stopped firing.

A similar thing happened to Menachem Begin, who was forced into retirement after the failure of the Lebanon invasion in 1982 and the international opprobrium heaped Israel's way after it essentially winked at a massacre of Palestinian civilians by Lebanese Christian militiamen later that year. But again, Begin was only forced out after Israel had pulled back to defensive positions in Southern Lebanon and its forces were no longer engaged in heavy combat.

Bibi is so busy trying to undo Israeli liberty and stay out of jail he did botch this and fate will not treat him kindly.

[–] CosmicCleric 14 points 9 months ago

A similar thing happened to Menachem Begin, who was forced into retirement after the failure of the Lebanon invasion in 1982 and the international opprobrium heaped Israel’s way after it essentially winked at a massacre of Palestinian civilians by Lebanese Christian militiamen later that year.

Learned a new word today...

op·pro·bri·um /əˈprōbrēəm/ noun harsh criticism or censure. "his films and the critical opprobrium they have generated"

the public disgrace arising from someone's shameful conduct. "the opprobrium of being closely associated with gangsters"

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

Israel not so much winked at the massacre but directly supported the infrastructure for it despite knowing it was to happen. Israel wanted the massacre that killed more people in a way equally gruesome to the current Hamas terror. But of course that gave no tangible repercussions, just stern words.

I highly recommend the move "Waltz with Bashir" where the movie maker is working through his own Trauma and involvement in Israels support of the massacre as young soldier.

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[–] lath 36 points 9 months ago (4 children)

The Israelian people will eventually need to put their foot down and redress the current situation else they'll lose their nazist victim card and instead become the nazists of this century. And few countries will dare to look kindly at them then.

[–] livedeified 22 points 9 months ago

Thank you for saying this. Calling for evacuation, then blocking the exits, is cruel and dishonest. Depriving civilians of basic utilities is certainly inhumane. The calls to kill 'human animals' rings of some Nazi messaging. The right-wing government is losing credibility and those whose support it is as well. Please, folks, let's remember that it's oppression and bigotry that is the real enemy here. #PeaceNow #religionandbigotry

[–] Aceticon 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

If they keep up the blockade of water, food and fuel to Gaza, the pictures of emaciated people - little more than skin and bones - dying of thirst and starvation, that will make everybody be shocked at the inhumanity of the perpetrators for the rest of the century, will have come from Gaza with the Israeli as the perpetrators.

Considering that the average age in Gaza is 19, unlike in the pictures that documented the disgusting acts of the Nazis which were mostly pictures of grown men, these ones will mainly have children.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 9 months ago

Thanks, good article

[–] dx1 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

/r/worldnews nuking any balanced comments on these threads. That site is so fucked.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

r/worldnews has always been a cesspit. r/animetitties is where you should be going.

The story goes, r/worldnews had almost no moderation, and users complaining about the quality of posts there were saying it was so bad they could get away with posting anime titties. They did, iirc it went unnoticed for a little bit. Maybe the admin stepped in or something and eventually r/worldnews became what we know it as today, but someone also set up r/animetitties and it became a place for much less biased news moderation.

Except on April Fool's. I think you can guess what r/animetitties users do on April Fool's.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Reminder Netanyahu is from Pennsylvania

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Really? Where can I find info on that?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

https://www.tampabay.com/incoming/netanyahu-gets-yearbook-from-his-pennsylvania-high-school/2237519/

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago (1 children)

So this says he went to high-school there. Was he born there?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Born in Tel Aviv, spent 1/3rd of his childhood (14-18 + a few years when he was younger) in the US, returned to serve in the IDF at 18

[–] [email protected] 37 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Okay, that's not "from Pennsylvania" under any imagination.

"Educated in America" is even a stretch unless he returned for college.

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[–] c0mbatbag3l 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Damn based on that logic I could be from like three foreign countries lol

Go look up "from" in the dictionary, kid.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

But he's succeeding in his own goals.

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