this post was submitted on 07 Sep 2023
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No Stupid Questions

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Quick edit: If this is considered in violation of rule 5, then please delete. I do not wish to bait political arguments and drama.

Edit 2: I would just like to say that I would consider this question answered, or at least as answered as a hypothetical can be. My personal takeaway is that holding weapons manufacturers responsible for gun violence is unrealistic. Regardless of blame and accountability, the guns already exist and will continue to do so. We must carefully consider any and all legislation before we enact it, and especially where firearms are concerned. I hope our politicians and scholars continue working to find compromises that benefit all people. Thank you all for contributing and helping me to better understand the situation of gun violence in America. I truly hope for a better future for the United States and all of humanity. If nothing else, please always treat your fellow man, and your firearm, with the utmost respect. Your fellow man deserves it, and your firearm demands it for the safety of everyone.

First, I’d like to highlight that I understand that, legally speaking, arms manufacturers are not typically accountable for the way their products are used. My question is not “why aren’t they accountable?” but “why SHOULDN’T they be accountable?”

Also important to note that I am asking from an American perspective. Local and national gun violence is something I am constantly exposed to as an American citizen, and the lack of legislation on this violence is something I’ve always been confused by. That is, I’ve always been confused why all effort, energy, and resources seem to go into pursuing those who have used firearms to end human lives that are under the protection of the government, rather than the prevention of the use of firearms to end human lives.

All this leads to my question. If a company designs, manufactures, and distributes implements that primarily exist to end human life, why shouldn’t they be at least partially blamed for the human lives that are ended with those implements?

I can see a basic argument right away: If I purchase a vehicle, an implement designed and advertised to be used for transportation, and use it as a weapon to end human lives, it’d be absurd for the manufacturer to be held legally accountable for my improper use of their implement. However, I can’t quite extend that logic to firearms. Guns were made, by design, to be effective and efficient at the ending of human lives. Using the firearms in the way they were designed to be used is the primary difference for me. If we determine that the extra-judicial ending of human life is a crime of great magnitude, shouldn’t those who facilitate these crimes be held accountable?

TL;DR: To reiterate and rephrase my question, why should those who intentionally make and sell guns for the implied purpose of killing people not be held accountable when those guns are then used to do exactly what they were designed to do?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Because they have a lot of friends who make laws. So coincidentally, the laws benefit them.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What I don't like about this argument is it feels like the government trying to pass off their own responsibility to someone else. Like, if guns are so dangerous in purpose that manufacturers should be fined for shootings, then government officials should just be regulating gun ownership to begin with. Like, imagine if instead of criminalizing tobacco because of its dangerous health effects, the government said that anytime a person is caught smoking it tobacco companies get fined. At that point you may as well just outlaw the company itself. Which is fine. I have no problem outlawing gun manufacturing. But this is just an unnecessarily roundabout way of doing that. What are we actually accomplishing if we allow people to be shot and then take action and milk money out of the situation? A responsible government isn't trying to point fingers after a tragedy like a mass shooting and they certainly aren't trying to make money off of it. No, a good government takes the necessary direct steps to prevent those tragedies from happening again, especially if it's a common occurrence. No need to dance around a solution instead of tackling it head on.

[–] thenightisdark 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I use guns to shoot paper. Your argument for what guns are created for is flawed. My gun is not created for the ending of human lives.

My gun was made to end paper from being completely without holes.

Are you saying that my use of the gun is wrong? Or am I allowed to have a gun that is not used for killing?

-Signed a bleeding heart lefty with a gun

[–] SpaceNoodle 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So you'd be fine with a hand-pump air pistol, then.

Edit: oh, he'd not. There goes that argument. Too bad he's too much of a coward to even reply.

[–] MisterMcBolt 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I have no opinion on you owning a firearm, or using it for any purpose outside of the topic question. I think it’s great that you and many people can use guns for fun and as a hobby.

My question is specifically about the accountability of the manufacturers for the use of their guns as weapons in crimes.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

so you'd be ok with us limiting the utility item to the task required? IE, it should be able to penetrate paper? cuz we can make that happen and still get rid of the human killing ones.

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[–] RIP_Cheems 1 points 1 year ago

Because the manufacturer didn't use the gun in a crime. If anything, the only person who could be responsible is the seller of the firearms, and even then it's unlikely that they could be sued as, again, their not the ones who used the gun in a crime, unless that crime is selling to a minor or someone who isn't allowed to own a gun.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure "this was used in a crime" is the sort of thing that can be legislated or sued over, if that makes sense. I think the more reasonable standard for successfully adjudicating criminality is people's or their constructs (corporations) acting negligently in the production, marketing, sales, and distribution of "things that can be dangerous" or "things that can be used to commit crimes."

The huge issue most of the responses in this thread have is that they say "you can't sue someone for making something just because the end user did a bad thing with it" oversimplification of how basically the entire world works.

The only reason manufacturers of anything have plausible deniability on being partially responsible for crimes committed with their wares is the strong likelihood that they could not have known the end user would do that.

If I hand craft a knife on and sell it on the Internet to someone who sends me a message asking "hey is this knife good for stabbing my bitch ex?" there's a decent chance a good lawyer could get me for negligence at a minimum and possibly accessory to a crime. Because a reasonable person might conclude that knife would be used for a crime.

There's a reason a Remington settled the lawsuit from the Sandy Hook families for $75 million: https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/us/sandy-hook-shooting-settlement-with-remington/index.html

They were never going to be liable for making the gun (particularly since gun manufacturers have a special law protecting them). But they clearly determined there was a decent chance they'd lose in court regarding how they marked, sold, and distributed guns, so they decided shelling out $75,000,000 was a better business decision.

If there's a company making screwdrivers out there and they're aware there's a screwdriver murder problem in a city and they manufacture and distribute their screwdrivers to that city and put up billboards and take out magazine ads glorifying how good their screwdrivers are in a fight... they ought to be liable. Not because a screwdriver can be used to hurt people, but because they should reasonably be aware that in that city their screwdrivers had a good chance to be used to hurt somebody.

[–] HonoraryMancunian 1 points 1 year ago

You'd like the film Runaway Jury.

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