The issue with the water block is massive to me. Testing a prototype product on a GPU that it wasn't made for, giving it a negative review, doubling down on that negative review when called out, promising to return the prototype to Billet Labs, then SELLING the prototype to the public at their LTX expo. As Steve points out, if a competitor gets their hands on that prototype, it could put Billet Labs out of business. This is wild, and LMG should absolutely be called out like this.
this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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There should be actual, legitimate, law enforcement involvement.. Cause its literally theft at best, corporate espionage at worst.
A $100million dollar company should be able to reclaim that property even if it means paying through the nose to get it back to the rightful owner. Losing a mass production GPU is one thing, that can be fixed with a check. A one of a kind prototype though? And who would make the decision to give something like that away, especially without consent? Things like that should come with a letter of endorsement of the charity sale, or at least have a (year plus) pause before just giving it away.
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Until I saw that I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even knowingly fudging numbers, while bad, is a temptation it’s easy to see someone trying to keep up with the content rat race falling into.
The corporate espionage on the other hand is fucking gross. Unless Billet Labs provides a statement that fully absolves LTT of any wrongdoing and states they OK’d the auction, I’m prepared to not engage with LMG at all anymore. Which sucks because I kinda like their water bottle.
I know we’ve only heard one side of the story so far, so I’ll reserve judgement. If it turns out as bad as it sounds though, they can get Anker’d
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I've had beef with LTT since his series of videos where he tried to use Linux as a daily driver while making absolutely zero effort to understand any of the differences between it and Windows, then proceeded to whine about how it's not Windows. The part where he broke his system after it explicitly warned him he was about to break it and asked for rather thorough confirmation that he wanted to do so was where I stopped watching him for good.
There's being ignorant and then there's being stupid. I fault nobody for being ignorant of how something works when they first encounter it. I do, however, fault them when they demand changes be made without actually understanding the implications of those changes.
The Linux thing I don't find egregious. Replace Linus with a sizeable majority of the population and they would have done the same thing. I probably would have as well.
If you want to move people from Windows to Linux, Discord to Matrix, Whatsapp to Signal or even Reddit to Lemmy, it needs to be as painless as possible.
Everything that GN points out though is pretty damning.
Billet labs incident is very very troubling. I can't see other youtubers not getting roasted over doing something like that, and could easily see a LTT video drawing attention to another channel doing something like that. So to find out LTT pulled such a move is a hit to their integrity.
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Yes! The Linux coverage from LTT is positive and encourageing UNLESS Linus is in the video then he looks for any excuse to raise his voice and yell "this is stupid" or "its going to break on me in 5 minutes". Emily's very good coverage of PopOS back in 2019 ish got me into Linux and I have not looked back. Its disappointing to see how with many things (not just Linux) how Linus will change the direction of a video to be more entertainmenting/clickbaity at the cost of good information and quality.
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That bit was important to include in the video in my opinion because of the circumstances.
He didn't break his computer while messing around with the kernel, changing system settings by recklessly copy&pasting random commands he found on the internet. It happened while trying to install a very popular software from the distro's official package manager, following what's otherwise standard installation procedure. A lot of people broke their systems the exact same way until that bug was fixed.
We all like to pretend Linux is "there", but it was a clear and important example of how it's not really. Because the user is dumb and the user has no idea what they're doing. At least that's the core assumption an OS should operate under if it is to be used by anyone and everyone. You can't claim even your grandma can run Arch when trying to install Steam can bork your system. And no, warnings are not a valid defense in this case. You will never teach the average user to not ignore those. Unfortunately it's the OS's job to protect the user from their own recklessness, and again, warnings are not always enough. Especially when you're getting warnings while doing something so mundane.
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But that's how the typical user behaves. I love Linux and what you can do with it, but it's so tone deaf to think oridanry people are going to behave any diffeent than Linus did. People just don't have the time to take that effort you expect of yourself, only enthusiast have this kind of time. Other people are enthusiastic about other things. We need to all respect this.
Ugh, it's so frustrating. Linux will continue to be irrelevant to consumers as long as this attitude of "just put in the effort to understand" persists.
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I started the video shocked that GN would do a video like this at all. I was 100% ready to blame GN for being petty. As I watched and listened, though, he made really good points, and I can't help but agree. Especially on the points where Linus doubles down on really bad takes instead of doing the right thing, insisting it doesn't matter (there are loads more examples than just Billet).
The one thing he didn't say that I wish he had, though, is to remind people that he's focused on industry journalism, not just hardware itself. This isn't a hit piece, it's an information piece, where he holds industry players accountable. Not unlike his journalism on Newegg and Asus. No, it's not positive, but it's honest, and it informs and benefits consumers.
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Linus's response.
I honestly fully stand by GN in this and while I think LTT should have had the opportunity to respond to the allegations before the video went live, since this is the proper Journalistic thing to do, it should be considered that ltt has a huge audience and influence in the tech sphere so I can only assume GN didn't want them to get ahead of the curve? It's sad if it has come to this.
I also don't know how exactly ltt could respond to the observations GN made since it's a piece about what happened in videos they posted. They can't really deny what happened. All they could do is lower their head and promise to do better.
Ugh, Hes trying so hard to double down on his comments, while giving plausible deniability to his doubling down, especially with the Billet block.
And its so fucking stupid to complain that the billet waterblock is expensive and stupid, considering ALL the stupid, expensive, wasteful bullshit hes done on his channel.. Its double stupid that hes still using his basis on using the wrong card that didnt fit it as his argument.
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I've got to say, I've noticed a lot of the things Steve mentioned in his video, and I agree with the vast majority of what he said, but I still do watch LTT occasionally because it's still often entertaining, but man Linus' response rubbed me the wrong way. Aside from addressing the auctioning the water block thing, he didn't really address anything and most of it came off as woe is me. It sounded like he thinks the GN video is why people are upset rather than the countless mistakes and corrections they've had to do in the past just 6 months. It seems to me like he's missing the issue most people have.
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The most noticeable thing for me are the constant annotations. Sometimes there are so many that I'm not sure why a whole video is up if it's half assed and they want to salvage it through bandaids.
Bot holy shit they are become sloppy and borderline corrupt. Thanks to GN for calling them out.
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LTT has lived long enough and grown large enough to see themselves being the villain. I suppose fame and wealth can corrupt a person easily, the arrogance in the response from Linus is disappointing.
LTT hasn't been a serious or informative tech channel for years, you don't watch their video for information but for entertainment. They try to right the course by creating the Lab team but miss the point when they don't change their mindset.
It's like Top Gear vs Fifth Gear back in the days. You don't buy a new car base on the reviews on Top Gear, likewise if I want useful consumer advice, LTT is the last place I look.
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Is watching this video considered piracy if there are no ads to skip over?
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Anyone else stop watching ltt already just because of boring topics, if you can even figure out what the topic is with their hyper clickbait titles?
I use DeArrow basically exclusively for LTT.
For those who don't know it, that's a crowd-sourced youtube title replacement script, intended to purge the platform from clickbait. Made by the same devs behind the SponsorBlock addon.
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Will Linus watch this one or will he just read the comments?
Probably wont find out until next WAN show, and I'm sure we'll see the same look we see in Lukes eyes every time Linus starts off being blatantly wrong and unable to admit it.
Genuinely gotta wonder how much more of it Luke has in him.
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He already did, you can find it here:
I would quote it, but it is too long to be a reasonable comment.
Wow you’re right that is extremely long. Tldr seems to be he’s saying he didn’t do anything wrong and he’s disappointed Steve didn’t just send him a quick text about it. I feel like it would have been better for Linus to own the mistake at this stage and get the prototype thingy back as it’s not like he’s short on cash or anything. I’d say he comes off like a bit of a jerk. We’ll see how this one shakes out.
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Damn this is eye opening for me. LTT was always my most trusted source for tech reviews. I noticed that they’d make little mistakes every once in a while, but didn’t realize it was part of a larger problem. I actually made a Ryzen 9 7900 buying decision recently because of this video which made it seem like the best value (especially compared to their very confusing 7950x3d review). After watching this GN video though, I feel stupid for not even thinking to check other channels before making a buying decision.
(Although honestly this is a major upgrade over my previous hardware, so even if it wasn’t the best possible option, it’s still a net positive for me.)
I really hope LTT takes this criticism seriously. It’s always gratifying to see misbehavior have consequences on the internet, but these independent reviewers are pretty much the only people on our side as consumers. I’d rather see a course correction than a crash, especially since LMG in particular has a uniquely powerful position and can have real impacts on manufacturers that benefit consumers.
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My take on it:
We know that we’re not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it’s sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing.
Yeah, well, that’s one of the main issues addressed in this video: You are not transparent about this, when you swap out videos without notice or bury corrections in a non-pinned comment.
Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn’t materially change the recommendation.
If the listing is wrong, who guarantees the lab tests on which the conclusion is based on are not wrong?
The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes.
Take the time it needs to produce correct reviews then. Who wants fast but false results?
The part that struck me was Linus talking about how he hopes Billet does well because it's a harsh industry. It's a harsh industry for Billet because the biggest reviewer in the space took their prototype, mis-tested it, panned it, and then sold it at auction. Trying to paint that as a one-off is difficult, because it wasn't a mixed bag on the quality of the experience. It was awful start to finish.
If I'm a small company trying to get a name in the space, I'd never go to LMG. "Trust me bro, we dunk on stuff, so you know we're honest," is a bad take if you're the one getting dunked on due to lazy journalism and R&D.
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I know saying "how many people still watch LTT" is kinda dumb with the views they pull in, but fuck haven't most people outgrown them? LTT helped me learn a lot of stuff when I started really getting into PC gaming decade ago, but after a few years I felt like it was just tech fluff videos. Most of their videos seemed like an ad for some fotm tech or just very basic concepts. I just don't see how people can still watch it after a few years just because it seems they make their videos to attract the lowest common denominator.
I agree that a large chunk of LMG content is vapid and surface level, and I was put off by them years ago because of it. Ironically though, I've found much of their newer output more appealing, not because of it's informational value, but because where else am I gonna see someone build a hacked together water loop with a car radiator?
I enjoy their content involving jank or overengineered solutions, their merch feels good (I would buy it even if it was just another brand like nike or adidas) and they arent as bone dry as GN, MKBHD is too mobile focused, Dave2D too regular consumer tech (like Laptops) focused, LTT has a bit of all.
The controversy he creates himself is surely valid but I enjoy the content more and the integrity he wants to stand for.
If you disagree or want to discuss my opinion, feel free to ask why I enjoy it.
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So is it just me or did anyone else notice how the tone of LTT videos changed after Linus stepped down from CEO? Everything seems to be on rails with 'uncanny valley's levels of scripting.
I get it, production quality and writing getting 'better' but it feels like it's being forced whereas before things were more ad-lib. You can see pretty clearly the difference in tone between the podcast and their videos... Not sure how to reconcile the two of if there really is a need... But it has been bothering me lately. They went through a similar stage a few years ago where their style really bothered me, and then it got better... so maybe it's more the writing/direction than anything else which can change depending on who is working on a particular video.
Edit: I just got through this video and, yeah... A lot of their reporting errors seem concerning, if anything not because there are particular errors here and there but because conclusions are being drawn from errors. The frequency is pretty astounding too... Would highly recommend people watch this one, as ethical and impartial reporting is a dying art. Gamers Nexus definitely tries (although nobody is perfect, and sometimes their anal attention to detail can be frustrating) with Steve seemingly having his heart in the right place when it comes to providing information that consumers can utilize in good conscience when making decisions. I have my issues with some of Steve's reporting at times, but I seldom question the validity of the content, whereas now LTT kinda looks like a crap shoot. No more reliable than the clickbait thumbnails you see on every other channel, LTT notwithstanding.
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Guess this is why GN and a few others were not at LTX
Billet Labs has a good case to sue LMG
I'm seeing 43k likes and 48k views. That's insane.
Dude sold out forever ago. ALL INFLUENCERS ARE JUST CORPORATE MOUTHPIECES.
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Anyone eles noticed that LTT (excluding LMG clips) have not dropped their usual daily videos yet. Leads me to believe they saw this GN video.
Good work Steve, they are already taking a bit more time on today's video at least!
They just released one. Probably triple checked it before publishing it too LOL
The frequency response graph used in headphones is not an accurate/standard way to measure microphones, and LTT labs doesn't have HVAC isolation.
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TLDR please?
LTT Prioritizes quantity of content over quality of content, knowingly pushes bad data, adds afterthought text updates (in the form of youtube comments) which never cover anything but the most egregious wrongs and sometimes dont even get pinned until called out, major conflicts of interest especially with noctua, ASUS, and Framework, oh.. and the got a prototype GPU block from a company, intentionally and knowingly mounted it to the wrong card, published the bad video and data anyway, then when criticized for that..Linus used the WAN show to attack the company claiming its products are failures that no one should ever buy.
Then, despite saying they would return the prototype several times, ended up selling it at auction instead.. Where it could eventually end up in the hands of a competitor.
and the worst thing about it all, is that its a known problem, that even LTT people in the recent ask LTT employees video all universally agree to the same basic premise of "To many videos, not enough time to polish/check"
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LTT/LMG is trying to market themselves as a reviewer that presents data accurately but has made many mistakes along the way. It's hard to shorten a 44 min video into a few sentences so I think it's worth giving it a watch.
I don't doubt this video was hard for Steve to make. From what I can tell Steve and Linus are pretty friendly to each other. Steve was the first person to let Linus know he got hacked
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Holy shit lol. I can never watch another Linus video again without thinking about this criticism.
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