this post was submitted on 16 Jan 2025
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Copied from another community: "Hoarder (the name) is being stolen from me" (lemmy.ca)
submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by [email protected] to c/selfhosted
27 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

For context, Hoarder is a bookmarking tool, and it was selected by selfh.st as one of the favourites of 2024

https://selfh.st/2024-favorite-new-apps/

Here is a link to the post, and it has also been copied below (with some extra lines added to fix formatting):

This post could have been about how hoarder reached 10k stars on Github, or about how we spent a day in the front page of hackernews. But unfortunately, it's about neither of those. Today, I received a cease and desist from someone holding the "Hordr" trademark claiming that "Hoarder" infringes their trademark. Quoting the content of the letter:

In these circumstances, our client is concerned, and justifiably so, that your use of a near identical name in connection with software having very similar (if not identical) functionality gives the impression that your software originates from, is somehow sponsored by, or is otherwise affiliated with our client.

They're asking to cease and desist from using the "Hoarder" name, remove all content of websites/app store/github/etc that uses the name "Hoarder" and the cherry on top, "Immediately transfer the hoarder.app domain to our client" or let it expire without renewing it (in Feb 2027). They're expecting a response by the 24th of Jan, or they're threatening to sue.

For context, I've started developing Hoarder in Feb 2024, and released it here on reddit on March 2024. I've never heard about "Hordr" before today, so I did some research (some screenshots along the way):

  1. They have a trademark for "Hordr" registered in Jan 2023.

  2. They registered the domain hordr dot app in 2021.

  3. Searching google for their domain shows nothing but their website, their parent company and an old apk (from Jun 2024). So they have basically zero external references.

  4. They've had their 2.0 release on the app store on the 3rd of Jan 2025 (2 weeks ago), with "AI powered bookmarking". The release before that is from Feb 2023, and says nothing about the content of the app back then.

    1. Their apps are so new that they are not even indexed on the play store. Google says they have "1+" downloads.
    2. I found an apk on one of the apk hosting sites from Jun 2024, which shows some screenshots of how the app looked back then.

  5. Wayback machine for the hordr dot info shows a references from 2023 to some app in the app/play store. The app itself (in app/play store) is unfortunately not indexed.

So TL;DR, they seem legitimate and not outright trademark trolls. Their earliest app screenshots from June 2024 suggest their current functionality came after Hoarder’s public release. Despite their claims, I find it hard to see how Hoarder could cause confusion among their customers, given they appear to have very almost none. If anything, it feels like they’ve borrowed from Hoarder to increase the similarity before sending the cease and desist.

Hoarder is a side project of mine that I've poured in so much time and energy over the last year. I don't have the mental capacity to deal with this. I'm posting here out of frustration, and I kinda know the most likely outcome. Has anyone dealt with anything similar before?

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[–] Blue_Morpho 77 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The letter is from a lawyer, not a court. It can be ignored. However I suggest sending a registered letter back to the lawyer to waste their time.

They will not spend the $20,000+ needed to go to trial. (That's only the court costs that must be paid. Full lawyer fees will be higher) I know this because I once had to sue a contractor. Court fees would have been larger than any money I would have gotten back. Fortunately it was handled through state licensing.

The letter should reference that your project is using the English word that describes the function.

I went through this decades ago because my Internet company name closely matched an extremely large computer manufacturer. I got a letter from an attorney. I wrote a letter back that my company name was the English word for the equipment used for Internet service. That was the end of it.

[–] Dasus 4 points 5 hours ago

I have like a huge pile of letters from some twat lawyers sending threatening letters about copyright.

The sad thing is most people I asked say "I would pay". This was like more than 10 years ago when I first got some of them.

The Pirate Party in Finland tried informing people of them being just threats, but Finns are really complicit people and afraid of breaking any rules, so I'm sure these twat lawyers made thousand, tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands. With Finland's tiny 5m population.

https://holda.fi/kiristyskirje/

Basically what happens is some company in Germany which owns the rights to some B-class show or just a porn film even, then they upload it to an open torrent site. Wait for people to download it (remember the didn't give permission to download it), look at the IP's, then send the respective country in EU a request for the ISP to get that IP owner's information and then hire a local lawyer to send them a threatening letter; "you've illegally downloaded a porn movie, pay us 800€ or we'll take you to court and you'll have to pay tens of thousands."

And if that goes to someone married or someone who downloaded fetish porn or something, they'll be even more likely to pay.

I never replied or did jack shit. Nothing has happened.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 day ago

I suggest that you spend the up-front money to consult with a lawyer. A lot of them will do an initial meeting for relatively little. They will be able to give you some idea of what risk, if any is involved in this. Then you can make a better informed decision about whether to ignore this, fight, or conceded and change the name.

I find out a few years ago that there are whole law firms out there who basically just send threatening letters for low fixed fees. They don't litigate or even provide real legal advice. It's one step above selling pages of their letterhead.

You won't know how serious these people are, or how serious their complaint is, without consulting a lawyer.

Best of luck!

[–] ikidd 29 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It would be interesting to decompile their APK and see how much of OPs code is in it.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 day ago (2 children)

They registered "hordr", not "hoarder". It's not your fault that there exist valid words in the dictionary, that describe what your app is doing, that they are not using.

This is just the usual case of domain and trademark squatting. If they attempt to further raise a finger (which from what I have read, from a judiciary point of view they haven't), you have good grounds to countersue. You can also provide the C&D as evidence of threatening and harassment and probably counts for suing the party who sent it if they used a third party, as there's supposedly a penalty for issuing false or trolling C&Ds.

That said: in a decent legal system no one should be able to trademark dictionary words. I'd suggest you change your trademark from "hoarder" to "hoarder.app" or something similar, as at the moment you trying to trademark a dictionary word is a vulnerability point that opponents with more money to waste can use to attack you, as this shows.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

The OP doesn't say that they have a trademark. For me it sound as they don't have one. Only a registered domain and the name of the software on github. The letter came on the grounds of the oponnents trademark.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 10 hours ago

The OP doesn’t say that they have a trademark. For me it sound as they don’t have one.

Ooooh might have misinterpreted that, still not fully sure on a second read. But in which case, it's even more important that they get that "hoarder dot app" trademark filed.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Isn't that exactly why so many of these company and app names have missing vowels? Because they can't trademark a word but they can trademark a collection of letters that sounds like a word when spoken aloud. It's really dumb.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Trademark is weird. Like, from what I can understand (IANAL and all the ANAL disclaimers) you can't trademark "motherfucker" or "mother fucker", but you can trademark "Mother Fucker's" for, say, an escort service of dirty nuns.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Would that be sister fuckers?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 14 hours ago

Depends if they are in charge I guess.

[–] bmcgonag 4 points 1 day ago

You might reach out to the open source initiative if your app is open source. They have lawyers, and may be willing to provide guidance at the very least. I’m just guessing, and don’t work for the OSI, nor know for sure whether they will or wont help in any way. Just another place to look. At the very least they may be able to suggest attorneys who might be willing to help out.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 day ago

Follow the advice of @[email protected], with one change if you can.

Get a consultation with a trademark attorney. Bring everything (screenshots, findings, etc) to the consult and say you expect it will go nowhere, but if it does you may need assistance. Tell them your plan to send the letter, and ask for suggestions. A consult should be a couple hundred dollars, but some places even have a free call.

Also, use archive sites for any information you find online. Multiple archive sites. 3rd party validation could be key if they don't back off.

[–] d00phy 10 points 1 day ago

Feels like this could be helped immensely by a blurb at the top of his GitHub page pointing to a gofundme to help pay for a lawyer. If the case has legs, settle and move forward. If not, it should be trivial for an IP lawyer to get dismissed.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

My non lawyer, and probably wrong, advice is to send them a polite reply asking them to refer to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram (1971)

[–] idiomaddict 11 points 1 day ago

In the 1971 case of Arkell v Pressdram,[76] Arkell's lawyers wrote a letter which concluded: "His attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of your reply." Private Eye responded: "We acknowledge your letter of 29th April referring to Mr J. Arkell. We note that Mr Arkell's attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of our reply and would therefore be grateful if you would inform us what his attitude to damages would be, were he to learn that the nature of our reply is as follows: fuck off."[77] The plaintiff withdrew the threatened lawsuit.[78] The magazine has since used this exchange as a euphemism for a blunt and coarse dismissal, i.e.: "We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram".[79][80] As with "tired and emotional" this usage has spread beyond the magazine.

For context, from the Wikipedia for private eye magazine

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That's really sad to see. I hope the courts dismiss the cease & desist because it's different name, and lack of popularity of the trademarked name.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago

Not only that, haven't we agreed already that you cannot trademark common words? I might be wrong but if I am not, then by proxy you shouldn't be able to trademark a similar word and then use that trademark against a common word name, no?