Fediverse

Stop addressing them as “normies” would be a great start.

Can’t speak for rest of the Fediverse as I’m not super active on microblogging anymore, but at least here on Lemmy, there is such a strong “in” culture and quirky skewed perception of the world, and often times come off as actively hostile against those that do not share the same quirky skewed world view. The anti-AI, anti-corporate, would rather shoot myself in the foot if it’s not FOSS, etc kind of views, with their own strong vocal proponents, comes off as unwelcoming. People are addicted to socials because of the positivity they can get, not the negative sentiments that’s often echo’ed.

Amongst those that doesn’t share the kind of view, you’d already be looking at an extreme small minority that might be willing to give the platform a try, but as long as the skewed perception of the world dominates the discussions, you can expect them to go back to main stream centralized platforms where they can get more main stream view points based discussions.

@dch82 first, "normies" have to not get harassed when they come here.

Unfortunately the biggest Fedi software refuses to add automated reporting of offensive posts so if it's not reported, the admins won't even see it.

People coming from corporate social media are used to ignoring the report button because in their experience, it either doesn't work, or gets ignored by admins anyway.

We need automated reporting.

@fediverse

Since most people are talking about the sign-up barriers, I'll mention culture and reputation.

I love Lemmy and Mastodon, but whenever I've seen the fediverse brought up elsewhere, someone inevitably shuts down any curiosity by suggesting that it's a political echo-chamber. I don't think that's accurate for all of it, but if that reputation is out there, we probably need to make an effort to show that there's a broader appeal. If the average person is expecting the fediverse to be the left-wing equivalent of something like "Truth Social", I could understand the reluctance to adopt it.

I'm a developer, and it was a pain picking an instance. You start reading about them, and it turns out one's censored, the other one's communist, third one doesn't cooperate with the other ones so you can't see anything...

As long as it is like this, I don't believe mass adoption is feasible. I would've given up because it takes a lot of time compared to just registering and off you go, but I was interested to see what's all the ruckus after reddit started with censorship. Maybe interesting to mention that I was never an active reddit member (not one post there).

How do we get “normies” to adopt the Fediverse?

We don't. Normies take one look at anything that isn't mainstream and pinch their noses. A significant portion of them can barely make a search on the internet, they get lost at the idea of "websites" and are likely heavily biased against people who aren't using what "everyone is using"

Anedoctal experience: back when I was using dating apps, I've had a fair share of girls that stopped talking to me once I said I didn't have instagram, because it meant I was "hiding something".

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned porn yet. Like it or not, it does drive growth.

Don't.

I like what this is, I don't want it to become everything for everyone

By permitting advertising.

"Normies" are not "microbloggers". Most people just want to follow what their friends and family and news organizations and "influencers" are posting.

My biggest gripe with the fediverse (indirectly) is that all the information I would get on Twitter about my city is not available to me - concert announcements, restaurant specials, road closures, major news, hobby meetups, etc. They're posting on Facebook and Instagram (which is IMO the worst of all social platforms) and slowly adopting Threads. My issue with these platforms is mostly regarding the algorithm deciding what it thinks you want. This is driven by advertising.

Twitter didn't really pick up steam until celebrities and news outlets were posting and engaging on the platform. Then they pushed hard for ads to increase revenue and expand features and stability (for better or worse). Then they just got greedy. Then they were sold for the dumbest amount of money in the history of sales.

Getting normies here means getting influencers here. Influencers want to make money for being assholes. If you don't want influencers and ads here, don't ask for the normies to come. Accept the beauty of this micro micro blogging platform. If you want to share outside the open fediverse, embrace cross posting to the closed platforms. That's kind of the whole point of it. You can post in your tiny little corner while still engaging with the more popular platforms.

TL;DR: be careful what you wish for.

I'm guessing a lot of comments will be of the "why do we want to?" variety.

You don't. If they don't wanna be here, don't take on this huge crusade to get them here. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. They must take the final step themselves.

Focus on making lemme a desirable place to be, less on getting people to use the communication tool you happen to prefer.

The reason I personally don't recommend or hardly even mention Lemmy to anyone else is because here's hardly any content they'd be interested in. The vast majority of posts are quite esoteric and directed at the kind of people who already are here.

Make it look like a centralised system initially. Provide a portal to a pre vetted/chosen instance that is accepting new members in their locale/country, that is the same for everyone.

Update: This (above) is badly written. I'm trying to say every potential new member gets presented with the same (pretend centralised) portal that is in fact an (valid long-lived) instance local to the individual potential for them to sign up with. So two local users in Oz get given a proxy to the instance local to them, and a user in Blighty an instance local to that person. The decentralised Lemmy looks centralised, but isn't. The proxy front end should explain that they're joining their local instance and it's like a network of little affiliated clubs that can see each others posts globally. they log in for the first time it will become clear.

It's late, I'm tired, sorry everyone. Is that any better?

I think it's confusing (the reverse of what they're used to) for a newbie who have been bought up in a centralised internet with single front ends of all the big players to be presented with little instances to join to access the whole.

I send people links to posts on Lemmy, and tell people I can't see Instagram/Twitter/etc.

Is it working? No, not really, but it feels like it should.

You can't, because normies don't care about tech other than it benefits them directly in some way. They care about the experience they get and doing the same thing everyone does because normies are like sheeps.

Normies barely even get how emails work and it's been like over 40 years. They know if they sign up for Gmail it's free, they get a ton of space and an @gmail.com address. That's it.

And even then, people looked at me weird back in 2007 when I made my Gmail account because "everyone uses Hotmail, why wouldn't you use Hotmail, everyone uses it so it must be the best". Heck just yesterday, the teller at the mechanic shop looked at me weird because I used [email protected] to place the online order, they were utterly confused. They thought I made a Gmail or Outlook for all of those aliases. People don't think about using emails, they think about using Gmail or Hotmail/Outlook.

Same with Reddit, it didn't become popular until normies felt like they were missing out by not being on Reddit, and arguably that was Reddit's downfall flooding the site with the same repeated arguments and opinions over and over. And for that too, I've been told my "Reddit looks weird" because I use a third-party app. People want to use Reddit so they download Reddit.

Normies don't use Twitter because they want to microblog, they use Twitter because their idols are on Twitter and they want to mimic them. If Taylor Swift opened a Mastodon account and posted exclusively there, we'd get a massive spike of users. And they all would want to register on the same instance as her and it would be the only viable instance to them.

They just want to fit in and do the same as the others, using the same services and same apps and everything. "Influencers" are everything these days.

The best way to get normies on the Fediverse is IMO, endorsing Threads and BlueSky, which will effectively force them to integrate because those platforms integrate.

Fedi client app developers need to design fedi client apps in a holistic way to include a custom server (as with Mammoth's moth.social) or create an account for the user on one of a curated selection of other servers, without forcing the user to choose one.

It's a severe problem with trying to grow fedi that general users are expected to understand how servers work and make an informed decision about which one to join. General users don't care about this topic and will quickly turn away when it is forced upon them. That's why the client app needs to handle this for the user without making a fuss about it.

These apps also need good discovery features and feeds with posts that are trending generally and for specific topics. Then devs need to make money with those apps somehow, then they need to market those apps (at this point, it goes beyond just "devs" and expands into an organization with a marketing department, etc.).

Then, hopefully fedi's inherent advantages of interoperability and resilience will naturally cause people to choose these user-friendly, effectively marketed fedi client apps over things like Instagram, Tiktok, etc. After all, if it can't compete on its own merits with all other factors being equal, there's no point to it for most people.

I said since I got here that the actual sign up process IS the hardest part. For exactly the reasons you said.

Each instance has it's own personality. As much as EVERY user here will hate to hear this, you need to centralize the decentralized. Have a single point of entry. Signup at Lemmy.com

Now you're [email protected]. and you're told that you have 6 months to pick an instance. And here's a guide to all known instances, with a wiki style explaination of what each instance's personality is. With an expandable list of each federated and defederated instance.

Now once they switch to their new "home" all their comments stay in their comment history. Everything in their profile comes with them. EVERY instance in the fediverse needs to adhere to a set of protocols. So that when they move instances, the only thing that changes is if you look at a post they made last week, it no longer shows [email protected] it now shows [email protected]. and if in 2 years you move again now it says [email protected] even for posts you made 2 years prior. It always lists your current account. Even if you move to Mbin. Now it says [email protected]

It's a learn, and grow as you go situation.

Oh, and if an instance ever shuts down, those profiles aren't lost. They revert back to Lemmy.com, and the 6 month rule is back in effect.

But you have to anticipate the user. Not control the user. And right now the user understands centralized. So centralize the decentralized, and THEN teach them slowly how it works. I understand today leaps and bounds more than I did 4 months ago. I'm still not sure Lemmy.World is my final home. I'm trying out piefed. I'm probably going to try out Mbin. And I'm sure I'll discover new things. But on day 1, I was like ".....do what now? What's an instance? What's decentralized?"

And NOW I can see that the Nintendo account I follow on Mastodon for the past year isn't really Nintendo. It's [email protected] and EVERY post gets auto "boosted". A year ago I thought that was literally Nintendo. I was surprised they were not only OBSESSIVELY active, but that they had a Mastodon account at all.

You gotta remember, this is how most people will walk into the fediverse on day 1. Not knowing how shit works, and if it doesn't work for them, they're out. You can teach them later. But also right now the fediverse as a whole is fragmented as shit. There's decentralized, and then theres disjointed.

You'll notice that I post regularly to THIS community. With constant questions. I'M taking the active approach to learning. The average user won't know that they're stupid. They'll think the fediverse is stupid because it doesn't work the way they're used to. Most people don't have the self reflection I have, nor the constant curiousity. If I don't know a thing, it bothers me. If most people don't know how a smoke alarm works, they fon't give a shit. Whereas I watch a youtube video for almost an hour. Did you know there's actually several different types of smoke detection? And that one type is very much more prone to false positives, and worse, lack of positive positives due to light? See, most people will find that boring, not give a shit, and move on. So YOU gotta teach them with annoying popups. "Hey, the fediverse is actually self hosted, and right now you're on the instance of Lemmy.com! Whats that mean? Well...." blah blah blah, you guys already know this part, but that's the message they should get on day 1. Teach them they need to understand what an instance is, and how to pick an instance that works for them. Then they can migrate there. If that instance is ever no longer good enough, they can migrate elsewhere. Even to Mbin, even to piefed, wherever! One account, all the fediverse.

And here's the best part. They can go to fediverse.com and log in regardless of which instance they're on. Just type user is [email protected] password is ********* and login.

And now all the decentralized is centralized. Without losing the benefits of being decentralized. Because it IS still decentralized. But most drivers aren't mechanics. They use the service, but they don't need to know the ins and outs. They just need to be able to use it, without it being confusing for THEM.

The hardest thing I've noticed is that linux user types don't grasp is that just because THEY understand something as easy, doesn't mean EVERYONE finds it easy. And there are a LOT of linux mindset people here. You may "get it", but that doesn't make it naturally intuitive. The fediverse is confusing as shit. Each part works differently. Has a different layout. Has a different interface. Operates differently. Which is a stark contrast to facebook users who just say "DO THE THING!" and suddenly 70 boomers are giving them thumbs up and emojis for a quilt they sewed and sharing the patchwork on.

Everyone here is saying to defederate from Threads, because it's facebook, and I get why. But are you seriously going to cut off the biggest by far userbase to federate with you, simply because you don't want corporate integration? Facebook still wouldn't own the fediverse, but now something like 80 million users will start asking questions about the fediverse. Yes, it's all old people, and people we would rather not interact with, but guess what. They don't want to interact with you in [email protected] either. They don't want to be in [email protected] either. They're going to create their own communities, which have no interest to you, but boost the fediverse's numbers. By the millions. And now maybe facebook as a whole integrates. Maybe reddit sees the momentum and they integrate. Maybe hoogle sees the momentum.

And pretty soon the fediverse becomes the default layout of how the internet works. And the decentralized nature means that no corporate entity CAN own it. They can put ads on individual instances that they own.......but they can't control all the instances. And people who don't care about those ads will stay there. People who don't will go to other duplicate instances.

But to defederate from threads before ANY of this takes place is the dumbest idea I've ever heard, while daily seeing those same people ask "How do we grow the fediverse?"

THATS HOW!!! Ok, I've ranted enough....

1. Fix picking an instance. It’s an irredeemably bad UX, even for tech people who could run an instance if they wanted to. Gotta remove that as an initial UX barrier first, which would require a new layer of system with integration with all of the clients.
2. Accept that this isn’t like mainstream social media and likely never will be, even if instance picking becomes easier for newcomers. So instead focus on what can be done well here. IMO it’s customisable community building.

Currently all the big fediverse platforms kinda suck at this, in part because it likely requires a bunch of features, but also because they’re all made in imitation of big social platforms that were always less “homely” and more engagement farms.

To bring normies, something new and unique needs to be offered. IMO there could be a rich ecosystem of content and structures and communities that draws people in.

My fear is that the protocol and federation are the limiting factors on this, and so I suspect some restructuring or redesign is necessary.

Why do we want to? They'll just lower the overall quality and bring on the enshitification.

I think picking an instance is just something people will have to learn and get used to as that's very essential to the fediverse experience.

I personally hate algorithms picking shit for me and that's why I use lemmy and why I used reddit back when it first came out. I search out and pick what content I see on my feed.

I definitely agree with more marketing. It's insane to think there's a lot of people that still use reddit and never even heard of lemmy

Defeatist opinion.

The commercial alternatives hope to make money with every additional user. They use AB testing and statistics to streamline the on-boarding and to increase engagement. The result may not be in the user's interest (doom-scrolling, ragebait, ...) but it works.

For a fediverse instance, any additional user is a cost, not the promise of money. Financially, you wouldn't want that. Those who fund instances are giving a gift to the world for their own reasons. You can accept the gift or not. Those who keep instances running with donations will usually want to sustain the community of which they are part. They probably don't want it to change very much.

So, I don't think matters will change. Partly because the psychological engineering is antithetical to the fediverse ethos (as I see it, in my humble opinion). But mostly because the outcome we see is an inherent result of the incentive structure.

At the moment federation between platforms is not useful. The only advantage is federation between Instances. I've used my sister at a test for what the average woman would think about it.

Aspects she thinks is cool are that it's owned by people and designed for people, that its left leaning and inclusive.

Aspects she doesn't care about are privacy, lack of ads, federation between instances, federation between platforms.

Aspects she doesn't like are her friends aren't there, none of the accounts she like are there, no recommendation algorithm. She also hates the name fediverse.

I think that we need to stop being boomers clutching our chronological feed and word of mouth discovery and embrace algorithms. That's not to say we can have chronological feeds it's just that we should include and option and serve some form of content recommendations.

I also think threads will be a major player in drawing people in. Its easier to convince people who use Instagram to switch from Twitter to threads than Twitter to Mastodon. Once they're on threads they can start being a part of the fediverse and then eventually they might decide to try out one of the instances.

Create a nice atmosphere.

Make it simple and remove any technical barriers. They should be able to google "Fediverse" click on the first link. Choose a username and be on their way. Find the app with the same name and install it in 2 minutes.

The network effect is a thing. They need to already find lots of their friends, interesting people and their favorite stars there.

And it has to be easy to discover them, if we don't have an "algorithm" that suggests content.

I'll be open and honest knowing whenever bringing the subject up generates anger. "Normies" aren't gonna join somewhere where 99% of the conversations revolve around using Linux. Jump into any thread and someone's talking about it. Doesn't even need to be a tech thread. As soon as someone goes against the grain immediate backlash. It's not welcoming at all.