this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
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Judge rules Breonna Taylor's boyfriend, not police, caused her death (www.motherjones.com)
submitted 2 months ago by jeffw to c/criminaljustice
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[–] [email protected] 114 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Truly awful and the implications are actually scary. A no knock no announce raid in plain clothes, absolutely could've been home invaders. This is the most classic basic scenario of self defense and home defense. You have split seconds to react to a potentially deadly situation, but you better make sure that you spend those moments finding out if they're cops.

This judge just ruled that self defense in your own home is not a legitimate case of self defense, and to be honest that should terrify people

[–] DreamlandLividity 49 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

My takeaway from this is aim for the head instead of warning shots. Ridiculous ruling...

PS: Maybe to clarify, there are now cases ruling that if you manage to kill the cops that don't announce themselves, that is legal self defense. But if you fire a warning shot, they can legally kill you. So it is far better to kill the cops than to give them a chance to kill you, legally speaking... Absolute brain dead legal ruling...

[–] [email protected] 29 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Warning shots, regardless of the situation, have always been a no-no. If you have to pull and discharge a firearm it is ALWAYS intended to be a lethal shot.

There is precedent of self defense being lost because of warning shots if you had the time to shoot a shot YOU KNOW is going to miss, you had time to disarm the situation in another way, is the legal justification.

So yes, if you own a gun, and intend to use it in self defense, no warning shots, aim center of mass.

[–] DreamlandLividity 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Btw, in Czechia and Slovakia, it is the opposite. If you have time, you are legally required to use a warning shot. To me this makes more sense since it is likely to defuse the situation without actually injuring/killing anyone. Although I admit it could escalate the situation if the warning shot causes bystanders/cops to get involved and misunderstand the situation. So I guess it is a matter of preference.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The thinking is that even considering pulling your firearm must mean that you are in a time-critical situation where it's the only recourse you have. The goal is to keep it from even entering the equation until the point where it's life or death. Not to mention any shot off-target had a chance to end up hitting someone or something you really shouldn't.

I can see the reasoning behind a warning shot. No reasonable person wants to take a life, and if a shot into the ground, air, or neighbors couch can prevent that, I get the appeal. Unfortunately by the time we're there, it's already well past the point where the other person is simply too much of a threat.

[–] DreamlandLividity 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

The thinking is that even considering pulling your firearm must mean that you are in a time-critical situation where it's the only recourse you have. The goal is to keep it from even entering the equation until the point where it's life or death.

But why tho? Does a cop keep their gun holstered until absolutely the last second? No! They aim at you at the first sign of danger so that you think twice before you do dumb stuff. Why wouldn't that apply to civilians defending themselves or their property?

By the way, warning shot is also not the first thing you are supposed to do in CZ/SK. If time permits, you should pull the gun, give two verbal warnings then warning shot immediately followed by another verbal warning.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

But why tho? Does a cop keep their gun holstered until absolutely the last second? No! They aim at you at the first sign of danger so that you think twice before you do dumb stuff. Why wouldn't that apply to civilians defending themselves or their property?

Point is they SHOULD keep it holstered until it's the only option available. There's a case to be made for training and accountability, but at least in the states that goes out the window. Your average cop is neither trained nor accountable,and certainly shouldn't have a gun. That's another argument though.

All of the warnings can be done before a gun gets involved. You can warn that you will defend yourself, that you have a firearm, etc. without brandishing it. And still, firing the gun and not hitting something important, in a high stress situation, regardless of level of training can't be done safely and reliably.

[–] DreamlandLividity 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

While I somewhat agree about the warning shot, I absolutely don't about the brandishing. Visual demonstration that you have a gun will always be many times more effective then just saying it. Requiring that you keep it holstered until the last moment is dumb. Not only are you loosing out on the deterrent but having to draw and load the gun under pressure is far more likely to lead to an accident. Or you carry the gun loaded which again increases the chance of an accident.

[–] BlueMacaw 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

If you carry, you should be carrying with a round in the chamber (I assume this is what you mean by loaded). If you're not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, you should not be carrying a pistol.

[–] DreamlandLividity 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Like, you read that in a horoscope?

[–] BlueMacaw 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Says every reputable CCW instructor. If you do not carry with one in the chamber, you either do not trust your equipment (in which case you should get better equipment) or do not trust yourself (in which case you should not be carrying).

[–] DreamlandLividity 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

By this logic, I should either drive without a seatbelt or not drive at all... What is this brain dead logic... 😖

[–] BlueMacaw 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You're basically taking the position that you should drive without a seatbelt. Either you always drive with your seatbelt (i.e. get a proper kydex holster, practice your draw, be familiar with your equipment and setup) or you shouldn't get in a car. You should never draw your gun simply to brandish - if you draw, you should be drawing with the intent to fire because your life is in imminent danger. Taking an extra few seconds in a literal life or death situation to rack your slide, when 1) you might not have the use of both hands, 2) your hands might slip due to adrenaline, or 3) you might fuck up the slide rack and induce a malfunction - i'm sure there are other situations too. These are all things you do NOT want to have happen if you are drawing your gun to save your life. And if you have the time to leisurely draw, rack, and brandish, a zealous prosecutor could easily argue that you weren't afraid for your life and/or you could have used that time to get further away from your attacker.

[–] DreamlandLividity 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Again, brandishing is not an issue where I live.

If anything, I would prefer the attacker see me rack the pistol just for the psychological effect, hopefully avoiding having to fire.

More importantly, I live in a peaceful country. The chances I get hit by a car or suffer a heart attack are greater then that I will need to defend myself with a weapon. So if a paramedic needs to handle the gun when I am incapacitated, I would prefer there was not a round in the chamber rather than fearing the tiny chance I will mess up the rack in the tiny chance I will need the gun at all. (btw, I currently don't everyday carry at all. The neighbourhood I live and work in is so safe I don't see the point.)

Of course, if I had to go to Afganistan or Detroit, I would definitely want a round in the chamber. 😁

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago

That falls under trusting your equipment. This train of reasoning is more along the lines of you never drive with your seatbelt because you don't trust it to save you, and in fact think it'll make it worse.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

They aim at you at the first sign of danger

I don't think we should be using (American) cops as the standard for reasonable behaviour here

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

It's nice that the Czechs and Slovaks have such a naive view of violence. It means the culture is doing something more important right.

[–] Xanis 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Okay, so, if someone fires a weapon in situations such as a no-knock raid, how many shots leading to lethality create a questionable defense?

That is: If I shoot once and hit, great! Twice? Three times? What if I double-tap? If I have the aim of some of these police officers, could I empty a full clip, reload, and empty another one?

Are their points involved? 10 points for a dismissal. 9 for a favorable jury. 8 for a good lawyer. 2 and your case is handled in Texas. 1 you shot at and missed a white guy.

We need more information!

[–] DreamlandLividity 3 points 2 months ago

Not a lawyer, non of this is legal advice.

As I understand it, you can mag dump as long as you manage to do it before the subject falls down, drops their weapon or otherwise clearly ceases to be a threat.

You as a civilian can't really shoot at a target you don't see, just in a general direction. This is endangerment of other potential people that may be in the area.

Cops shouldn't do it either but they are not punished in anyway for it.

As for how many point is Texas jury worth, and how many negative point does a Californian jury give you is outside the scope of my theoretical knowledge.

[–] [email protected] 105 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

That is so fucked up.

This is basic 2A. This is the essence of it. Handgun in the home in case someone breaks in.

Bunch of dudes break in, with guns, in the middle of the night, and gun owner, awakened from sleep, opens fire in self defense.

Boom, basic.

THEN they announce that they’re police and the narrative then changes. That’s not ok. That judge is a dick.

Those police killed a health care worker asleep in her bed through their own shitty behavior.

[–] shalafi 46 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Shoot back. You're going to die in any case. This is how the cops have trained me to react.

Is it any wonder that blacks, LGBT folks, women and other minorities have been the largest gun purchasing demographic over the past few years? Or did y'all think guns are only for us middle-aged white guys?

Defend human rights by any means necessary. Fighting for a just society may mean fighting, and yes, the price might be your life. I got kids. Not going to see them grow up in Nazi America.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Liberal gun owning is definitely a thing. The difference is liberal gun owners don’t hang flags and such. They’re the unmarked houses.

[–] shalafi 4 points 2 months ago

Mom sent some gun stickers right before she died. "Shalafi likes gun! Here are some neat stickers for him!"

Sorry mom, not putting that shit on my truck. Risk vs. reward, nope. And they're all black, can't go on my rifle cases. :(

[–] Chee_Koala 82 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Wow, this just seems like legal racism. Someone used the right to defend themselves in their own home against unknown assailants , and it's their own fault their loved one dies. Really. Really? That was some mental Jiu Jitsu from the judge.. wow.. I already thought the justice system in the US of A was broken, but I was wrong. Its a terminally infected void of dark hatred, just trying to fuck over anyone as hard and as fast as they can, a minority incarceration machine :). Except for policemen and women ofc.

[–] Chee_Koala 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Maybe we can ask the supreme court to rule over this, so they can all show their colors on paper!

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

6-3 ruling that black people have no rights coming right up...

[–] RampantParanoia2365 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Led by the big black justice.

[–] Zacpod 2 points 2 months ago

Pick me! Pick me! I'm one of the good ones, see!

[–] Zacpod 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Wow, this just seems like legal racism

Because that's exactly what it is. You just know if it had been some rich white family the cops would be facing consequences. But it wasn't, so they're not. It's straight up racism. ACAB.

[–] [email protected] 59 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Truly what the fuck.

Also, according to the article, judge is a Reagan appointee.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

Sounds like Reagan.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 2 months ago

Horse shit.

That jackass needs to be removed from the bench

[–] edgemaster72 29 points 2 months ago

The system is rigged

[–] [email protected] 29 points 2 months ago (1 children)

THEY SHOT HER

[–] RizzRustbolt 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

No, he shot her... with his mind bullets.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

[–] radicalautonomy 7 points 2 months ago

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

[–] Phegan 25 points 2 months ago

Oh fuck all the way off.

[–] badbytes 21 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Legalized gangs of thugs

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Not just legalized, but trying to defend yourself against them--against their worst excesses--is illegal.

[–] mojo_raisin 4 points 2 months ago

This is the essence of state.

[–] SupraMario 16 points 2 months ago

The fuck he did....those jackboot tyrants did.

[–] Linkerbaan 9 points 2 months ago

Sprinkle some crack