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A naked call to free breasts and minds (commonwealthbeacon.org)

submitted 4 months ago by borebore to c/boston

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[–] tetrachromacy 43 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The double standard of topless & male-presenting being ok but topless & female-presenting not being okay is confusing and pointless. The rule won't force anyone to go topless if they'd prefer not to. It just levels the playing field for everyone.

I've seen men with much bigger boobs than women proudly display them at every beach, lake and festival I've ever been to. Why is that ok but not ok for women? Nobody can give me a good answer that's not tied into some patriarchal, thought-terminating religious BS. Everyone should have the option to go topless, irrespective of chosen gender.

[–] yggstyle 23 points 4 months ago (6 children)

I'm all for a level playing field... but it's a complex issue. Beyond the basic: "it's hot out - free the tiddy!" There are some complexities that will arise from the resulting freedom.

Many women who want this still may get uncomfortable if people stare / check them out etc... While it is rude to give anyone a thorough look over - I imagine many women may become deeply offended or uncomfortable if this were to happen. Eyes up here may be expected but it cannot be demanded. Equality is just that.

What about incidental contact? Public transportation, festivals, busy spaces... I have, many times, had someone come in contact with my body in cases like these. If I have exposed skin it is possible it will get touched. Nobody enjoys getting touched or having their space invaded by others but there is a stark difference between this contact and sexual assault. Imagine how some of these occurances will play out from both perspectives.

Like it or not women's breasts have been sexualized and undoing that is a Herculean task. Regardless of where you stand on the topic there is collateral damage that can occur as a result of something that seems, on the surface, to be a simple change in law. I'm all for the change but everything gets messy in a hurry by just flipping that switch.

[–] SacralPlexus 34 points 4 months ago (1 children)

So there are lots of cultural and societal reasons that a woman won’t want to be topless in public. But it shouldn’t ALSO be a crime which is the point of this, right?

[–] yggstyle 6 points 4 months ago

I completely agree with this. It shouldn't be a crime. My concern is this becomes a monkeys paw or Pandora's box. Legal vs normalization. Legal needs to come first but I cannot imagine how long we're looking at things to get normalized.

[–] primrosepathspeedrun 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

but what if I dont want people to stare?

then wear a fucking bra/shirt. that's part of what they're for. I own several! but also, I don't always want to wear them, or care. do you understand what a "choice" is?

what about incidental contact

yeah, topless dudes on the train can be annoying. im sure topless women on the train would be almost as annoying. and don't care! also, have you heard of a "choice"?

undoing oversexualization is hard, so lets just not

shit, okay, you got me. too bad I need to either decide everyone must go topless, or nobody can, and we can't each choose from day to day. oh well.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

What is the point of being dismissive of parent's concerns and straight up misrepresenting what they said in the last "quote"?

I'm in favor of making the law gender neutral, and quickly without having answers to all these questions.

Doesn't mean there won't be unintended consequences that aren't worth discussing to get ahead of them.

My gut reaction is if its legal in public does that make it legal in the media? Will publishers and advertisers use this to further objectify women? Even though I'm asking these questions, I'm 100% in favor of gender neutral laws for media and advertisements.

My off the cuff and likely unrealistic solution that has nothing to do with gender is to just ban most forms of advertising out right. This includes never requiring users to make the "choice" to agree to any ads in the terms of services in order to access goods and services (e.g., gas pumps, accessing a bank account, etc.).

[–] primrosepathspeedrun 2 points 4 months ago

I'm actually down with banning ads. not for this, but, like, if that's what gets you on board, I'm so fucking in, let's do this.

[–] yggstyle 4 points 4 months ago

do you understand what a "choice" is?

I do. I've expressed this plenty above. Sometimes expanding on it bothers people with sensitivites. Discussion can do that.

yeah, topless dudes on the train can be annoying. im sure topless women on the train would be almost as annoying. and don't care! also, have you heard of a "choice"?

And that should be the normal way things play out. I assume you are capable of understanding that the ideal is not always the norm.

shit, okay, you got me. I can't deal with opposing opinions so I need to lose my cool and throw a tantrum. oh well.

Noted.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

then make it illegal for men to be topless wherever women can't be topless. making it illegal for women to be topless "for their own safety" and "to protect them from the evil men" is not based. the solution to men staring at women that wear or don't wear certain clothing is not to make it illegal, I hope we can agree on that

[–] yggstyle 2 points 4 months ago

then make it illegal for men to be topless wherever women can't be topless.

Sure that's an option. It's a regression from what we're talking about but it is undeniably equal.

making it illegal for women to be topless "for their own safety" and "to protect them from the evil men" is not based. the solution to men staring at women that wear or don't wear certain clothing is not to make it illegal, I hope we can agree on that.

We don't disagree. From my first to my most recent responses that hasn't changed.

If you look objectively at my statements you will see I clearly am for the equality and for the law to be put in place. My statements following that were simply expanding on my "Herculean task" assertion I made early on. We are talking about human nature which is arguably pretty shitty when left to its own devices and you needn't look very far to see examples of this. The law change is the first step in a series of steps. I simply am acknowledging this fact.

[–] borebore 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for all your thoughtful and persistent commentary in this thread. You've given me a lot to think about.

[–] yggstyle 2 points 4 months ago

Cheers. It's a complex topic and there are lots of views that should be expressed. It's a good discussion honestly- very good reading and worth being a part of.

[–] ReiRose 2 points 4 months ago

Pluck out their eyes

[+] [email protected] -8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Teach them not to stare.

It's pretty easy.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

We teach that for generations. Turns out the sexual urge can't just be "taught" away, people will look regardless, even unconsciously.

[–] primrosepathspeedrun 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

is it a sexual urge (which is fine to have) or a thing that is seen as exclusively sexual (which is maybe problematic)?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I dont think anyone considers boobs as purely sexual. Due to their biological function they are also distinctly maternal, but within the context of sex i suppose they are considered erotic because full breasts biologically indicate good health, and the ability to successfully nurse children.

Same reason we find nice hips attractive although it serves no immediate purpose within the context of sex. But they are also called child bearing hips for that reason; we find them attractive because they indicate a mate able to successfully give birth.

[–] primrosepathspeedrun 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I mean, the tits thing is a myth. I've seen women who were basically flat nurse children, and women with back problems on their chests have trouble. the actual amount of tissue required is very small, or something.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Of course big boobs aren't necessary, nor are the hips. We do consider them attractive for that reason though. My point was that our sexual desires are something very primal and instinctual, and decidedly not something that can be "taught" to overcome.

[–] yggstyle -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This. Everyone is thirsty. Legalizing toplessness specifically does one thing: it says a woman's breasts are not special. Not sexual. The same as a back, a leg, a hand. That will drastically effect sexual harassment cases and what defenses a woman has to someone being a scumbag. I can stare at a guy's chest all meeting long and nothing will come of it. Flip that. "I'm just looking, it's not illegal". To me that seems so much worse. It doesn't just affect women who want the freedom- it affects all women period.

[–] CarbonatedPastaSauce 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm a guy, and women's breasts will never not be sexual to me. They are the most arousing part of the female body to me. So the whole "they aren't sexual" thing is never going to fly. I'm sure you could find women who admit to being sexually aroused by a man's bare chest, so I don't see what that has to do with anything anyway.

The simple fact is, women should be absolutely free to put their bare chest on public display as long as men are allowed to do so. I've been to a lot of places in the world where women going topless is legal, and have only ever seen publicly topless women in places where it is not. My experience tells me legalizing it isn't going to cause hordes of loose women to roam the streets looking to corrupt little Johnny. But that's what the prudes are worried about.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

I don't know man. Join a nudist colony for a week or two and tell me if you still get a boner every time you see a titty.

Hell, back in the 1700s girls could have their titties out anytime they wanted to it was no big deal but if they showed an ankle or a shoulder then she was a tramp making men squirt their pants left and right.

The things that are considered erotic are contextual, and once you are inside of the context it takes the power out of it.

[+] yggstyle -6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sure it's easy until you deal with the fallout. If you legalize it you have acknowledged that a woman's breasts are not sexual. There is no recourse. The reason this is a tough subject is legally we are saying a woman's breasts are no different from a man's and that is a costly statement. Equal? Yes. But it opens a lot of doors and some of them are unquestionably undesirable.

[–] bostonbananarama 9 points 4 months ago (3 children)

If you legalize it you have acknowledged that a woman's breasts are not sexual. There is no recourse.

No, you literally do not have to do that. You can legalize toplessness and every other aspect of every other law would remain the same.

Your argument essentially means that a person staring at a woman's leg constantly could not constitute harassment, and that simply isn't true.

[–] CarbonatedPastaSauce 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You nailed it. I don't understand the argument of "being legally topless = not sexual", because who in their right mind would be saying that? They are just saying "If men can do it, so can women". Rational people don't bat an eye when they see a woman breastfeeding in public, because it isn't sexual. And this isn't any different. Hell, if any hint of sexuality in public caused uncontrollable, orgiastic behavior, then a whole bunch of the advertising in our country would have men unable to function on a daily basis.

Women should be as free as men to display themselves however they like. The other path, taken to the extreme, leads to your society's women wearing sheets over their entire body when they go out in public.

[–] yggstyle 1 points 4 months ago

This is making a bad faith argument. Nobody, including myself, is disagreeing that there shouldn't be equality in this space... the statement being made is that legalizing it has side effects IN ADDITION TO the desired result. Some women want the freedom to bare their chest in public. I cannot think of any women that would want to lose protections from being objectified and abused. This is the point I was making. It's not fair... but I understand why many parties have concerns about it.

[–] yggstyle 1 points 4 months ago

Your argument essentially means that a person staring at a woman's leg constantly could not constitute harassment, and that simply isn't true.

In what bizzaro world would this ever result in a successful complaint? This is the point I am making. There is a difference in body parts and expressing intent.

I'm not saying it's not wrong. It can be. I'm saying it's not easily actionable which leads to abuse.

[–] yggstyle -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Legally, you do. You may not like it but that's how it works. The law is about precedent and interpretation.

This is the road that will be traveled first:

What needs to be covered up? Why does it need to be covered up? Naughty bits. There was a time when a woman's bare leg was sexual and staring at it was, of course, a deviant behavior. Now? Legs for days. Can you take someone to court for looking at your legs? Sure. Will it have a good chance of success? No. What changed? The level of sexuality attached to legs. Extrapolate from here.

My argument isn't about how it should be. People should be decent. They often aren't. My statement is about the legal implications of the decision. Breasts either remain sexual which means all naughty bits are on the table or.... they aren't and are legally no different than any other nonsexual thing.

[–] bostonbananarama 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Legally, you do. You may not like it but that's how it works.

I'm an attorney, you don't know what you're talking about.

My argument isn't about how it should be. People should be decent. They often aren't. My statement is about the legal implications of the decision. Breasts either remain sexual which means all naughty bits are on the table or.... they aren't and are legally no different than any other nonsexual thing.

This isn't how sexual harassment is determined at all. Nothing you've said has any connection to reality.

Can you take someone to court for looking at your legs? Sure. Will it have a good chance of success? No.

YES! If you're in a workplace and that behavior is happening and it consistent, it is a hostile work environment. It would be no different if the unwanted attention was on a leg, an arm, or a breast.

[–] yggstyle 2 points 4 months ago

I'm an attorney, you don't know what you're talking about.

Enlighten me. Dave had someone staring at his chest all meeting. He wants to make a case. Play that out.

Sure. Will it have a good chance of success? No.

YES!

I said this much.

If you're in a workplace and that behavior is happening and it consistent, it is a hostile work environment. It would be no different if the unwanted attention was on a leg, an arm, or a breast.

That case would end before it reached a courtroom. It would be insanely difficult to prove intent if we are talking about a back, arm, leg, non sexual part of the body, etc.

[–] Glowstick 12 points 4 months ago

It's state-by-state. In NY it's fully legal for women to be topless everywhere that men are allowed to

[–] Phegan 3 points 4 months ago

Breasts are not sex organs. There.is nothing indecent about them. Let them titties fly free.