this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2024

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transgender

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If you are looking for a more secure and safe trans space, we suggest you visit https://hexbear.net/c/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns. While we will try our best, lemmy.ml/c/transgender is far more open to the fediverse, and also to trolls. One of the site admins of lemmy.ml, nutomic, is also a transphobe, while hexbear is ran mostly by trans people and has a very active trans community.

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An admin of this instance, Nutomic, is a transphobe and has no right to be able to ban trans people from this community. (lemmy.ml)

submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I'm calling for https://lemmy.ml/u/[email protected], the most prolific user of the transgender comm here on lemmy.ml, to be immediately unbanned and nutomic to be removed as admin. It is good and correct to leak the DMs of transphobes.

@[email protected] @[email protected] @cypherphunks

edit: you can find more info from kristinas post here and beavers post here

edit 2: proof, also beaver was banned from the whole instance modlong

edit 3: For trans people looking for a safer instance, I suggest Hexbear. They have a very active trans user base and are extremely supportive.

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 3 months ago (1 children)

God damn, I agree with Marcie.

Nutomic should self-crit and step back

[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 months ago

💖

[–] [email protected] 45 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Oh god … this happened?!

non-trans person sharing their perhaps invalid and uninformed opinions

As someone who was calling for easing up on dogpiling on nutomic in that thread, banning beaver here, and the instance, is IMO not ok, at all.

Nutomic, you were probably pissed off about the leaking, I think most would get that. But as an admin here and a core dev, I think you have to do way way better than use your admin rights here as a weapon against someone you no longer like and who posted on another instance. If you think there’s a situation to sort out, it’s gotta be done more openly than this.

Rule 1 of this instance (against transphobia) probably applies.

No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.

As in, this moderation action was likely against instance rules. How else is a minority community to combat their oppressors than post about what ever communication they receive? To punish them for that communication however inappropriate it would have been from a less oppressed person is therefore punishing them and then coming under rule 1.

There were plenty of other ways to handle this. Banning a user looks a lot like petty and unreliable admin-ing. Especially when the issue of whether you are a transphobe is on the table and instead of addressing that you’ve chosen use your power against the transgender community here.

I get that leaking personal chats is always a dodgy thing, but in this case, I really hope the lemmy ml admins sort this out.

It’s really bad to weaponise admin powers against an oppressed minority. Certainly makes me question my membership here and the admins values. And is a particularly bad look for an instance many are criticising for having power crazy admins, most of which is red scare crap but totally justified in this case I suspect.

[–] grue 46 points 3 months ago (1 children)

[I'm neither transgender nor a tankie, but instead just a rando browsing "all" who has no dog in this fight (aside from a general preference toward egalitarianism and against bigotry). I'm only commenting because this appears to be starting to spill over into issues that are relevant to the Fediverse at large.]

Nutomic, you were probably pissed off about the leaking, I think most would get that.

Hell no, not even a little bit! There's no such thing as "leaking" a PM* because the recipient has the right to publicize it! It's fucking nuts to send a message to somebody -- especially one that pisses them off -- and then expect them to keep it secret for the sender's benefit. If the sender doesn't like it, his recourse is to not fucking send the message in the first place!

The notion that the recipient of a PM has any kind of obligation toward the sender is the dumbest fucking thing I've read on this site in a while, and that's saying a lot since I've been reading about Trump and shit. Actually going so far as to ban somebody for a reason so pants-on-head moronic is absolutely beyond the pale.

By the way, I'm assuming that you (@maegal) are saying things like "I get that leaking personal chats is always a dodgy thing" because you're trying to be charitable to better persuade Nutomic. If you actually believe that nonsense, then you need to get your head screwed on correctly, too.

(* unless somebody hacks the server to obtain PMs that he wasn't a party to, which I assume is not what we're talking about here.)

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I swear, petty and vindictive banning is far worse on Lemmy than it ever was on Reddit, and particularly on ML instances.

If I were to indulge in a bit of armchair psychology, I'd say it is a side effect of venerating authoritarianism.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Maybe it's worse on ML instances. I honestly would start explaining it by looking at how much red-scare crap they go through.

But generally, I think you're right ... I've seen ban-happy mods too, and not on ML instances.

I'd say it's people learning how to manage decentralisation/federation. It gives people a greater sense of ownership and power and so you get some power tripping and a new source of drama and identity politics (based on instances). Kinda sad actually.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Fair point -- having power decentralized certainly makes it more common for individual actors to act unilaterally in this way. However, in my experience the most egregious examples have been users being banned from Lemmy.ml for simply expressing a contrary opinion in a non-aggressive manner.

For a community that is so actively political, the tolerance for an open exchange of views is surprisingly low.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 3 months ago (1 children)

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 months ago

🫡

[–] [email protected] 37 points 3 months ago

How on earth is "Leaked private messages" a reason for banning. Absolutely an abuse of power and Streisand Effect is doing it's thing.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 3 months ago (4 children)

I'm just an occasional lurker here so I'm pretty out of the loop, but wouldn't it make more sense to just migrate to an instance without an openly transphobic admin? Isn't being able to do that supposed to be one of the big advantages of a federated service?

[–] pivot_root 23 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

There's also the issue of Nutomic being a core Lemmy dev. While something can be said about detaching the art from the artist, having alleged* bigots be involved in the long-term planning of a project raises question of whether they'll let those opinions influence the direction of the project. For example, if somebody created a pull request to add pronouns to user profiles and it was rejected, would it be for a valid technical reason or bigotry with plausible deniability.

* I say this because I'm not looking to get instance banned at this time.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

but wouldn’t it make more sense to just migrate to an instance without an openly transphobic admin

That's really just too passive for me at least, much prefer to occupy a space and make the transphobes leave.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Apologies, I just woke and can’t quite sort all the details. But I’m on the side of anyone who promotes acceptance. I’m against anyone who is a bigot. I support safe and welcoming communities.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago

good vibe 💗

[–] [email protected] 21 points 3 months ago (2 children)

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago

Thanks. Dealt with on our end

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

@[email protected] @[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

man "leaked private messages" is such a weak fucking excuse in the face of transphobia. @[email protected] you realize you're just alienating a huge fucking number of comrades? not just trans people, but all those that rightfully stand with us too.

edit: nutomic you absolutely can come back from this if you don't double down. accept your shit, and work on it. and you know what that would be great to see, there's not enough of that in the world.

if not then @[email protected] and other core devs, i think you have a tough decision to make. i absolutely do not envy you. though do keep in mind that handling this correctly will solidify even tighter community support behind the Lemmy project.

we need more good comrades behind ActivityPub development :p

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

Agreeing with you here, I’m wondering if this can spawn a broader project to try to alter the relationship between the admins, mods and users.

More and better feedback loops and grassroots organisation and less “admins and mods own this, take it or leave it” culture.

In the end, I think this comes down to poor admin/mod practice and poor community leadership where many of the users here would just like to make sure things are better.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Not that I disagree with anything in this post but I would like to point out that Nutomic is, IIRC, the literal creator and dev of Lemmy itself.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 3 months ago (2 children)

afaik dessalines is the creator, nutomic is a co-creator and second largest contributor

[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

It seems a strange distinction to say one person is a creator and another is the co-creator. Kind of by definition, that makes both people co-creators.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I think its in the direction of who owns the github repo, which defines a bit more of a strict hierarchy

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

Sounds like one person is the creator, and the other is a prominent contributor. I'm just pointing out the oddness of the use of co- on only one side.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Though to be fair, there's a good chance that your pleas are not heeded here and that the admins do close ranks (I'm hoping some form of correction occurs, becuase it's pretty obviously a petty and personal ban). Point being, you and this community may want to (if you/they aren't already) think about what you want to do should they ignore you here.

Also, in the proof you provided ... it's important to note that they banned beaver from the whole instance. You'll see bans from a whole bunch of communities as well as a general in the modlog: https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=9782557

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago

yeah, i'll edit that in

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago

They're a core dev, yes, but not the creator AFAIU, that's dessalines who started the project. Nutomic joined pretty early though and is a major contributor to the project yes. I think they've been happy to counter each other's behaviour whenever it made sense in the past.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

He can be the president dude. If you're a Transphobe little bitch, you deserve what's coming to you.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago

Would Nutomic say something back?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I suggest lemm.ee. Extremely chill, no politics (on an instance level anyways), few blocked instances except the troll ones, stable, ^also ^no ^stupid ^hexbear ^emojis.

It's just great.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

+1 for lemm.ee. The person who runs that instance also seems really cool and I donate monthly.

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