this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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My wife works in a restaurant, and the power-tripping manager has instituted a new policy where all shift changes must be approved by management. I think that is reasonable enough, but they're also asking the originally-scheduled employee why they are switching shifts, then approving or denying based on the answer.

For example, her coworker (Tom) wanted Monday afternoon off, and Harry agreed to cover the shift. The manager asked Tom why he wanted Harry to work for him, and Tom said, "I have a softball game." Manager denied the shift change because it was "unnecessary".

Is this legal? I feel like if you're able to find someone to cover your shift, you don't owe management any explanation why you need the time off. How should my wife approach this situation? Colorado, USA BTW.

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[–] smokin_shinobi 374 points 1 year ago (5 children)

“Personal obligation.” Should be the only response anybody gives him going forward.

[–] [email protected] 113 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Bad case of anal glaucoma. I just can't see my ass going in to work today.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A+, just got to figure out how to work this into conversation without getting HR involved now.

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[–] dicksinabag 81 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Exactly. I'm a manager and literally never ask the reason unless it's longer than a week. They like to tell me anyway even though I've told them I don't care.

[–] [email protected] 73 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Maybe they just really feel like they can open up to you, Dicksinabag.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I feel like I could open up to Discksinabag pretty easily

[–] Risk 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'd actually prefer it if they opened up to me.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I don’t know, that feels like a risk

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[–] JDubbleu 17 points 1 year ago

I can't imagine having a manager like in this post. I had to get a few hours coverage for my on call shift to pick my partner up from the hospital for an outpatient surgery. Manager didn't ask why I needed coverage but it just happened to come up. They immediately offered to get my entire shift moved without me even asking.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Seriously don't understand managers like this. Also a manager, qnd I'll even find the coverage if someone needs a day off. I know how nerve wracking it is as an employee calling around asking someone to cover your shift, its a lot easier for me to send a mass text. Incidentally, the staff seem much more willing to pick up shifts this way.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Could go into great detail about significant health issues, becoming more and more emotional as you go on, and tearfully asking "why would you make me talk about this? I wanted to keep this private! I haven't even told my family yet!".

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[–] Fennario 180 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It’s legal but insane. Your wife should start looking for a new job.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm not sure it would be legal if they were forced to reveal medical information.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Christ are we going to be having "hippa"(sic) arguments again?

You can refuse to answer - I sure would. Or just say you have an appointment. Being asked is not illegal.

Then I assume the jerk will just deny your request.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Right, but if you're request for denied for something medically necessary unless you revealed it, you went anyway (because it's necessary), and then you got fired... That feels like it shouldn't be legal (obviously that doesn't mean that it isn't).

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[–] Ghostalmedia 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

That would be a violation, but it is perfectly m legal to ask if someone is going on generic “sick” or “medical” time off or leave. Every company I’ve ever worked for has had be declare my PTO as sick leave or discretionary time off. And the latter is what it means, it’s at the discretion of the manager to approve it.

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[–] Ghostalmedia 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Correct, non sick leave is usually considered discretionary time off; meaning, it’s at the discretion of the manager to approve it.

That said, this manager sounds like a nut job. It’s legal to be a hard ass, but people don’t have to remain working for you.

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[–] [email protected] 96 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I would decline to answer, and if pressed, say something vague, such as, "a medical procedure". That should be enough for most people, but if it they keep pressing, I would come up with something embarrassing, such as, "I need the time off to get my anal prolapse taken care of." Then be upset that you had to disclose private medical information and ask to speak to HR.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I don’t know if you were addressing the specific case mentioned, but if someone has a softball game they want to go to, and they say they have a medical procedure to take care of, that could easily be grounds for termination.

Best answer I can think of is to unionize and negotiate a CA that includes shift trade rights. Short term, I don’t think there’s much you can do if the company wants to be a dick.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mental health is a medical issue. Ergo any vacation is medical.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In my experience most restaurants dont even have HR lmao. My mileage obviously varies but I have worked a few food industry jobs, and exactly 0 had any HR person other than the managers and assistant managers themselves

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I believe HR in this instance would be "calling corporate."

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[–] [email protected] 80 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Always give your boss as little information as possible. They aren't entitled to it and are much more likely to use it against you.

I say that as a manager. It's just good practice. If the manager doesn't know exactly why you're taking the day off, they can't be held accountable for it either.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago

As a manager, I don't give a flying fuck why my team wants to take time off. Wanna sit on your ass and play video games for a week straight, cool all good by me : just let me know the dates, check their PTO balance, and ensure it doesn't conflict with key deliverables and if so either work out a plan for coverage or suggest they look for a different time to take off if possible

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I don't know what Colorado's laws are on this in general, but even if it's technically legal it seems like a huge risk that someone is going to plausibly allege that given the specific facts denying them time off was race/religion/family status/... discrimination. It might be legal (don't know), but it's a stupid policy for a number of reasons.

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[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I have a co-worker who says her reason for the time off request is always gynecology related. Bosses never ask questions.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"Good morning boss, I need two weeks off for gynecology-related activities".

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You could be having a baby, that falls into the scope.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

I need a leave for my pap exam.

Denied.

Why?

You're a man.

Gender discrimination reported to corporate headquarters.

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago (3 children)

One way you might resolve this is to get everybody talking about it without the boss there. I bet nobody likes the policy. Maybe everyone would agree to not give a reason, or to give the same reason that is an obvious lie?

[–] [email protected] 58 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Maybe if all the employees presented a united front. Like a sort of joint group of just the employees. Together in a union of sorts.

[–] brimnac 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Maybe individually they do not have a lot of power, but together could be strong?

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[–] zik 45 points 1 year ago

"Personal reasons". If they continue to pry just say it's extemely personal and hopefully they'll back off.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"show me in my employment contract where it says I have to disclose that"

[–] acunasdaddy 47 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If this is in the US employment contracts are virtually nonexistent.

If a policy doesn’t discriminate against a protected class, it’s pretty much legal. Your recourse is to find another job.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

We need legal advice communities

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

In Ontario that's perfectly legal. It's also legal for you to decline to answer that question.I worked in kitchens for about 15 years and came across that problem at about 1/3 of the places I worked. Not super uncommon, the industry is filled with flakes.

Keep in mind in most jurisdictions Restaurants get special labour rules.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"special labour rules"

Seems every industry has their own... I work in IT and we get shafted as well

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

It's like a "special military operations", in the workplace!

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think I would simply comply, maliciously.

What's my reason? I'm going on a journey in alignment with my religion. Try telling me I can't follow my religious beliefs on the record.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't live in the US, so I cannot comment on the legality of this. However, I will advise an informal policy of malicious compliance. If the manager asks why someone needs to take a day off, that someone should reply with incredibly graphic medical issues, whether real or fake. Think 'I'm shitting blood and I need to see a doctor,' or something like that. Keep it up for a few months and see how management responds.

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[–] pinwurm 24 points 1 year ago

Whats it say in the employee handbook regarding time off?

It’s not the manager’s job to decide if someone’s personal obligations are necessary or not. It’s their job to assure there is coverage and the work is complete.

If the employee is abusing the shift-change timeoff policy, that is a different story.

If the manager is the owner, it may be a good idea for your wife to freshen her resume.

[–] kava 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Of course it's legal. Why wouldn't it be?

She should approach it by either following the stupid rules or finding a new job

I second others advice by saying as little as possible. "Family issues" "personal obligations" "health problem"

No use being honest with a boss that isn't understanding

[–] jocanib 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Of course it’s legal. Why wouldn’t it be?

I'm assuming you're USian?

The question almost anywhere else in the wealthy world is why would it be legal? The manager does not need to know therefore the manager has no right to ask.

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[–] sylver_dragon 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The answer is going to depend on Country, State (if in the US) and locality. For a US based answer, you can contact he US Department of Labor and ask them for a real answer (certainly better than you'd get asking people on the internet). You can also contact the Department of Labor for whatever State the work is performed in.

At a guess, it's probably legal under certain circumstances. Knowing most small businesses, the policy is probably not that nuanced.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What bullshit. I’d make something up every time.

Whether their request is legal or not, my personal life isn’t my employer’s business, and certainly doesn’t revolve around their “approval”.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A lot of incorrect answers here as to the legality - this is not a blanket 100% definitely legal situation. In the US, the boss can certainly ask why. But, if he denies leave for something that is discriminatory then that is an adverse employment action under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act if they employ at least 15 employees.

For instance, if he doesn't allow leave to someone to observe a religious holiday, but allows others to go on leave under similar circumstances, that could be illegal.

A lot of things could be discriminatory. Its stupid of him to ask for specifics beyond medical vs personal.

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