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309
Hamas Wants Guarantees Ceasefire Will Actually Happen, While US Says Hamas Is Rejecting the Proposal (truthout.org)
submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by Keeponstalin to c/world
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Following the UN Security Council vote to approve a three-phase ceasefire in Gaza, U.S. officials and other international allies of Israel are cynically placing blame on Hamas for a stall in current ceasefire negotiations — even as Israel has insisted on indefinitely continuing its massacre in Gaza and Hamas has said its main request is a guarantee that Israel would actually honor the ceasefire.

But reports from a wide variety of news sources on how both Israel and Hamas are approaching the ceasefire proposal suggest that Blinken is lying about which party is accepting of the deal. Indeed, reports have found that it is actually Israel that won’t agree to the deal’s framework: an immediate ceasefire with a limited prisoner and hostage exchange, then a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, and ultimately the reconstruction of Gaza and return of Palestinians to their homes.

Israel’s insistence on continuing its genocide has been consistent throughout the last eight months, including in reaction to the most recent ceasefire proposals of the past weeks. Officials have said Israel will only stop bombarding Gaza when they decide that Hamas has been eliminated and Palestinians there no longer pose a threat to Israel — a pledge that requires the mass slaughter of Palestinian civilians, as military procedures and Israel’s own public statements have shown.

But the main demand from Hamas appears to be straightforward, according to other officials familiar with the negotiations. Multiple outlets citing such sources have echoed what Hamas officials have said: that they are primarily concerned with getting guarantees from the U.S. and Israel that the deal will actually lead to a ceasefire and withdrawal from Gaza.

Specifically, Hamas is concerned about a lack of assurances from the current proposal about the transition between the first and second phases of the plan, Reuters reports, citing multiple sources involved with the talks. The first phase involves a six-week ceasefire, with the release of some Israeli hostages, while the second phase calls for a permanent ceasefire and Israeli troop withdrawal.

Archived version: https://archive.ph/vNwMx

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[–] GrymEdm 57 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (31 children)

Israel has repeatedly stated their intent to continue the war in Gaza regardless of international approval. Netanyahu, among others, has stated intent to establish a long-term/permanent security presence in Gaza.

Since Oct. 7th the Israeli military has either directly killed or provided protection to lethal settler attacks in the West Bank, resulting in over 500 deaths in a section of Occupied Palestinian Territory that theoretically isn't at war. So there's Israeli military presence, violence, and oppression of Palestinians even where Hamas isn't in control.

Hamas are not good guys by any stretch, but unfortunately they are the folks bargaining for Gazans. In the face of continued Israeli aggression, disregard for international approval/law, and stated plans it's no wonder they're demanding that any deals have rock-solid guarantees on an enforceable timetable.

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[–] atx_aquarian 47 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

I hope this doesn't just dissolve into hand-waving and general dismissal based on "he said / she said". Someone call the bluff and let's see the cards face-up.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Disclaimer: I have no idea and it's confusing; I just read a bunch of stories just now; and people lie sometimes. That said, these are the details of the full plan as of a couple weeks ago, which supposedly came from Israel but which they immediately clammed up about whether or not they actually would agree to, not saying either yes or no for quite some time, which was weird. There is still some uncertainty over whether they will "agree to" their own proposal.

This is the best story I could find which actually somewhat explains what's going on at this point. According to it:

  • Hamas didn't reject the deal but they asked for changes (details not made public and people disagree about what they were and how big they are). Personally I tend to put quite a lot of faith in the Qatari spokesman whose blackly comic summary of the issue was "two fundamental differences; between what Hamas wants as a permanent ceasefire, and what Israel wants as a hostage release and maybe a plan to continue the war."
  • On that note, someone in Israel's government (no one knows who) said yesterday, "Israel will not end the war before achieving all its war objectives: destroying Hamas’s military and governing capabilities, freeing all the hostages and ensuring Gaza doesn’t pose a threat to Israel in the future." I.e. we get all the hostages back and keep killing you until we feel like we're done, and then at that point, we'll be happy to cease fire.
  • We finally see the details of what's going on in Israel's government: Sounds like Benny Gantz (who already resigned) and Yair Lapid are supporting the cease-fire, and Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben Gvir have threatened to "collapse the government" if it goes through. Nothing public about what Netanyahu thinks but Benny Gantz cited disagreements with him as why he was resigning.
  • Both Blinken and Qatar are blaming both Israel and Hamas for doing too much bickering and not enough agreeing to the cease fire. Blinken points out, with maybe a certain amount of validity, that Hamas could have simply said "yes" to the US/Israel/UN/Qatari approved plan already on the table instead of giving the Israelis any room to blame them and keep the war going which is clearly what they wanted to do anyway.

TL;DR it's probably Israel's fault

[–] Tronn4 11 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It will. And in this time isreal keeps killing

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 weeks ago

Seems like it. They just started bombing another designated safe zone, Al-Mawasi, a couple of hours ago.

[–] disguy_ovahea 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

That’s why Blinken is there. Hamas suggested an altered version of the ceasefire that Israel won’t agree to. Now Blinken needs to find middle ground.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/blinken-says-some-hamas-proposals-unworkable-work-ceasefire-continue-2024-06-12/

[–] Viking_Hippie 11 points 2 weeks ago

That’s why Blinken is there

To lie to the world and pretend to be a neutral arbiter while clearly being on the side of the genocidal apartheid regime like every other secretary of state for the last 75 years?

Well, in that case I'll say something I would never otherwise say, based on all he's done so far: Blinken is doing a great job! Well done!

(Autocorrect changed great to grotesque, which is more accurate in general)

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[–] Linkerbaan 37 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (9 children)

From what I am understanding a few points Hamas wants changed:

The US ceasefire proposal says israel only needs to leave the populated areas of Gaza. Meaning Blinken is saying that he wants to let israel occupy the "non populated areas" of Gaza

Hamas wants israel out of Gaza.

Israel wants to continue their Genocide if a deal has not been reached after 6 weeks.

Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire and the ceasefire should continue indefinitely after 6 weeks if there's still discussions ongoing.

For the rebuilding of Gaza the US would contribute ~400 million dollars to rebuilding Gaza (damage estimates 30-40 Billion from UN) after giving israel 26 Billion in weapons. Did not read a comment about this from Hamas but this seems rather low.

[–] 555 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Israel needs to rebuild it

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Israel needs to stay the fuck away from it forever.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

then a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, and ultimately the reconstruction of Gaza and return of Palestinians to their homes.

I don't have anything to add, but want to ask a question about this part: what fucking homes?!?!

"Ok, you can go back home now. Btw, it's a pile of rubble now, so good luck with that. Bye!"

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

that might be directly related to "reconstruction of Gaza" thing

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago

It's going to take years, if not decades, to clear the rubble and the human remains still inside.

The millions of reconstruction for billions worth of damage will ensure there is maximum amount of 'unpopulated' Gazan area for Israel to remain occupying.

Which also means there is a baked in flashpoint of conflict where Israel will have to leave areas that are rebuilt. The entire history and existence of Israel indicates this will not happen: settlers will occupy anywhere the IDF is: which brings us back to the status quo.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 weeks ago

Read the sentence before it.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Regardless of whatever changes each side wants, stopping the shooting and bombardments would be a gesture that would represent actual intent in reaching a real ceasefire.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 weeks ago

And if one side wants to continue the shooting and bombing? Then you can't even agree to a ceasefire. And that's the issue we have

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Guys, this war is not going to end before the US election, stop pretending: bibi and his fascist buddies want to get trump into the presidency so they can do whatever they want. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905

hamas thinks that more victims means more support for them and they are never going to surrender or hand over the hostages. https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7

PS: The disagreement in the negotiation is the ambiguity on the permanence of the cease fire: hamas wants guarantees that the war will not continue in the future. Biden is not in a position to give or force that guarantee if he loses. Israel does not want such a guarantee, because they think they can eventually exterminate hamas faster than the suffering of palestinians radicalizes new militants.

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[–] scarabic 5 points 1 week ago

“Look at these bad faith negotiators who won’t even accept our empty promises.”

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago

Sounds like this deal is on thin ice already. Not surprised.

[–] NotAnotherLemmyUser 4 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I thought I read something earlier today that mentioned that the current deal is that the hostages be returned and then Israel will pull out it's troops.

Hamas wants to alter it so that they release a few hostages, then Israel pulls out, and then they release the rest of the hostages.

It sounds like Israel had already agreed to that deal so isn't this in Hamas' ball park to accept or not?

Then again it sounds like every time the deal is altered, the other side wants to male new changes,

As Blinken mentioned in a different article:

“At some point in a negotiation, and this has gone back and forth for a long time, you get to a point where if one side continues to change its demands, including making demands and insisting on changes for things that it already accepted, you have to question whether they’re proceeding in good faith or not.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-ceasefire-negotiations-ab6925549d8f523a6e5c61e88e7eec8a

Has anyone actually published the entire deal (at any stage) in its entirety so that everyone can see what is being debated?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

This is the actual deal. It's been approved by the US, UN, and Qatar as a mediator. According to the US, it came from Israel, but there's apparently a little civil war going on in Israel's government about whether to "agree" to it or not. It seems likely to me that the terms were simply dictated to a mostly-unwilling Israeli government, then announced (by the US) "on behalf of Israel," and now they're pouting about it but also don't want to say out loud to their sugar daddy "fuck you I don't want to," because then we might stop arming them so comprehensively and vetoing things for them at the UN, and so they're stuck.

Hamas's proposed changes are not public, so it's impossible to say how big a deal they are or how necessary. I tend to blame Israel in general because they are so clearly acting in bad faith and also they're the ones killing all these innocent people, but... I also have to say that Blinken's statement makes some sense to me.

It would have been very easy for Hamas to simply agree to the deal on the table, and if Israel wants to reject it, or “accept” it but just continue the war immediately under some paper thin excuse (both of which seem highly likely), then at least there's not this weird confusion about whose fault that is. It's hard to come up with an explanation for Hamas wanting changes and fucking the whole thing up that doesn't involve blaming them for the inevitable results of that decision at least partly. To me as an unqualified observer person.

[–] Keeponstalin 9 points 2 weeks ago

The Three-phase plan from the UN Resolution:

Phase one includes an “immediate, full, and complete ceasefire with the release of hostages including women, the elderly and the wounded, the return of the remains of some hostages who have been killed, and the exchange of Palestinian prisoners”.

It calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from “populated areas” of Gaza, the return of Palestinians to their homes and neighbourhoods throughout the enclave, including in the north, as well as the safe and effective distribution of humanitarian assistance at scale.

Phase two would see a permanent end to hostilities “in exchange for the release of all other hostages still in Gaza, and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza”.

In phase three, “a major multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza” would begin and the remains of any deceased hostages still in the Strip would be returned to Israel.

The Council also underlined the proposal’s provision that if negotiations take longer than six weeks for phase one, the ceasefire will continue as long as negotiations continue. No territorial change

In the resolution, the Security Council rejects any attempt at demographic or territorial change in the Gaza Strip, including any actions that reduce the territory of the enclave.

[–] Aceticon 4 points 1 week ago

The Biden Administration is happily an active Israeli Hasbara propagandist.

The second most sad things in all this situation (after what's happening to Palestinians) is how the upcoming US election is turns out to be between Administration openly supporting "quasi-Nazis" because of their ethnicity and even spreading Himmler-style propaganda and Fascists.

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