Mr Sunak said: “... there are forces trying to divide our society in this increasingly uncertain world."
Yes, Rishi, and you lead one of those forces, you oleaginous minifig.
this post was submitted on 26 May 2024
97 points (96.2% liked)
United Kingdom
3903 readers
249 users here now
General community for news/discussion in the UK.
Less serious posts should go in [email protected] or [email protected]
More serious politics should go in [email protected].
Try not to spam the same link to multiple feddit.uk communities.
Pick the most appropriate, and put it there.
Posts should be related to UK-centric news, and should be either a link to a reputable source, or a text post on this community.
Opinion pieces are also allowed, provided they are not misleading/misrepresented/drivel, and have proper sources.
If you think "reputable news source" needs some definition, by all means start a meta thread.
Posts should be manually submitted, not by bot. Link titles should not be editorialised.
Disappointing comments will generally be left to fester in ratio, outright horrible comments will be removed.
Message the mods if you feel something really should be removed, or if a user seems to have a pattern of awful comments.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
People who say there's no difference between Tories and Labour can get in the sea. Or do some national service, idk.
The people who say that sort of thing heard someone else say it once and just parrot it. When you try and delve deeper into their political philosophy you realize that there's nothing under the surface.
My Brother-In-Law is like this, What he knows about the political situation of this country wouldn't fill the back of a postage stamp. Yet he's perfectly comfortable telling me how all political parties are the same.
Sometimes i find people will also use it as a 'discussion shut down' when they don't want to get pulled into a larger conversation about politics.
They have their reasons, like knowing they have little knowledge on the subject, or knowing the person they're talking to and not wishing to engage with them too heavily (i may be guilty of employing this tactic at times).
They espouse a political opinion in order to not engage in a political-based conversation?
How does that work.
No they just have a stupid political opinion which is based on the intellect of a concussed goldfish.
While i find your derogatory comments about concussed goldfish disappointingly predictable, the point is by saying 'both sides are the same' or 'both are as bad as the other' isn't really a political opinion.
Its a statement that withdraws from engaging in the differences in party positions on specific subject or policy positions by broad brushing them as the same.
For instance, a flounder might say to a butterfly fish, that, goldfish (concussed or not), are all the same, just to stop talking to the butterfly fish and get out of its reef! :)
But you see, they came into the forum. I'm talking about people that come in and go "I think they're all the same".
They come to me with that opinion. You don't think I'm engaging random people on the street in political discourse do you?
Look random people on the street might find it a fun interlude to their day :) I know you weren’t completely though due to the personal example you referred to a couple comments back.
However, you didn't specify a method, said brother-in-law enters into the political discussions. From an outsider's perspective, (me), there was no indication.
Also,
will also
I used these words in my first reply, not to deny your experience, but to add to it. The general nature of the word,
people,
in that part of your comment followed by an absolute statement spurred my entry. I think it's important to highlight varied reasons people have for doing the same things.
You spoke in one part of the comment generally, the other part specifically. My reply attempted to accept your specific experience, while engaging in the general discussion indicated about 'general people' happening alongside it.
Another unfunded pledge from the Conservatives. What do we want? Housing! What will we get? Conscription!
David Cameron already did this anyway with the voluntary National Citizen Service. He also promised to eventually make it involuntary but never did, presumably because it was unworkable, expensive or both. So, what has changed to make it workable or inexpensive?
The realistic prospect of an armed conflict with Russia is what has changed.
Whether we cannot afford it is irrelevant, we may have no choice. We couldn't afford it in 1939 and it wasn't long ago that we'd only finished paying for our WW2 debts.
Unless something drastic happens that Putin comes to his senses we are in most likelihood heading for very dark times.
We're not the only country considering a return to National Service/Conscription.
Which is exactly why the army has been asking for more funding, which it actually needs. It doesn't want conscription, which it recognises would be a waste of resources.
Other countries considering a bad idea doesn't make it a good idea.
Conscription isn't fundamentally a bad idea it just needs to be built into your long term defense strategy
The UK military leadership disagree with you. IE the experts who need to manage the system.
All it dose is create ill motivated unskilled labour. At a time were fighting a wat has the least need for that type of labour.
And the military leadership of every country where conscription is a thing disagrees with you.
All it dose is create ill motivated unskilled labour.
If you think military conscription is for the here and now you unfortunately don't know what you're talking about.
Conscription is so that if you need to mobilise quickly, all of your eligible population are already trained, have units to report to, officers etc.
If you're building a defensive military, it makes perfect sense, because in a defensive war motivation more or less ceases to be an issue.
The UK's military is far more expeditionary, so it doesn't make sense unless you build it into your long term plan, which is exactly what I said in my original comment.
As we are talking about the UK. Where it is UK military leaders and technological investment that the leaders will be training for.
What any other nation thinks or dose is pretty worthless. As is some politicians trying to win votes from boomers. Or myself.
Only opinion that matters really is the UK military leadership. Who make it clear they do not want this.
Other countries considering a bad idea doesn’t make it a good idea.
This isn't talking specifically about the UK, and nor was I.
Yeah this is a tread about the UK government trying to sell a crap idea.
So yes the only opinion of any merit at all. Is what the military leaders of the UK armed forces think.
Other nations have different military structures. Different concentration of assets. The UK back in the 1960s ended conscription. And decided instead to invest in technology. And personal with the training to operate that technology.
Rather then using ill motivated short time troops as little more then cannon fodder.
Conscription is always a bad idea. Because once you have gotten to that stage. You are basically deciding to throw bodies at the problem. As russia is doing.
For a nation lacking funding. Sure it can be the only option. And for a nation at genuine risk of ground war. It can be needed. But its a bad idea. Because when you get to that stage. Other ideas and options before hand would always have been better.
Conscription is by its very nature using citizens of your own nation to absorb attacks. As in no situation can conscripts show the professional training of people who choose to invest in a military career. Hence way pretty much every nation with funding. Even the few that keep the option active like the US. Has military leaders who reject it. And just mouthy politicians and older voters who think it is a positive solution.
Edit: related but a little of topic. Another reason most nato nations and the UK reject conscription as anything but an all has failed strategy. Is MAD. As much as Russia threatens and brags. Russia knows full well attacking a NATO member nation will not result in a ground war. Russia simply dose not have the air or naval superiority over NATO nations as a whole. The only threat they have that has any chance of working in an all out war. Is nukes. And while russia may be overconfident in the effectivness of their own stock of nukes. They know full well NATOs are well maintained. So using one on a nato nation. Is the end of Russias ability to use them as a threat.
There is a reason Russia has avoided landing on NATO land. Even after they forced Finland and sweeden to join. Mutually Assured Distruction may be crap when dealing with Extremist nations using terrorism. But Russia still has enough sanity to recognise its limits.
this is a tread about the UK government trying to sell a crap idea.
Largely, but I was responding to the specific sentence I highlighted.
The UK back in the 1960s ended conscription. And decided instead to invest in technology. And personal with the training to operate that technology.
The UK has favored a doctrine of a small, well trained, professional army since before WW1. It's also tended to be more expeditionary. Both of these conflict with the benefits of conscription.
That doesn't mean it's an outright superior system. It has its own drawbacks and benefits compared with alternative systems. Sometimes you send that force into a meatgrinder because the fighting calls for more manpower than it can supply, regardless of technology. It depends on the war you're fighting.
Rather then using ill motivated short time troops as little more then cannon fodder.
Weirdly enough, fighting a defensive, existential war tends to solve the motivation problem pretty quicky.
Also, if you're calling up previously conscripted troops when shit hits the fan, they will have been trained for far, far longer than if you try to enlarge the size of your fighting force from scratch.
I feel like your knowledge of conscription comes entirely from the Red Alert 2 unit of the same name. Don't confuse peace time conscription with war time conscription. They're incredibly different things.
For a nation lacking funding.
You're really just running down the bingo board of one-liners that betray a complete unfamiliarity with what you're trying to talk about.
No military budget is infinite. You decide the type of military you want to build, and you build it in the most effective way possible. Sometimes conscription fits in with that. Sometimes it doesn't.
once you have gotten to that stage
Tick another one off the bingo board.
We're talking about conscription in peace time.
Conscription is by its very nature using citizens of your own nation to absorb attacks.
That's literally what a military is.
in no situation can conscripts show the professional training of people who choose to invest in a military career.
Conscripts receive the same training as career professionals.
Russia knows full well attacking a NATO member nation will not result in a ground war
Why wouldn't it result in a ground war? NATO isn't going to want to escalate into full apocalypse unless they absolutely have to.
There's a reason the UK didn't nuke Argentina when it took the Falklands.
They know full well natos are well maintained
The UK's two most recent trident tests both failed.
It is a bad idea, which is why nearly everywhere has stopped doing it and hardly anywhere has started again.
Because their long term military strategy changed.
Conscription makes perfect sense if you're setting yourself up to fight a defensive war. E.g., Finland's entire military is more or less built for a defensive war against Russia, so they conscript.
Because they built it into their long term strategy, like I said in my original comment.
Germany used to conscript, because there was this thing called the USSR that represented a very real and existential threat right next door. Then that stopped being the case, so their long term doctrine changed from defensive to expeditionary, so they stopped conscripting.
Given that expeditionary wars in the middle east are becoming a bit faux pas, and "being invaded by your neighbour" is back in fashion, I imagine more places will shift doctrine again and conscription will start seeing a return. Then again it might not because of how fundamentally unpopular it is with the population.
And when there's any chance of us having to fight a defensive land war against Russia, I will admit I was wrong.
Don't worry, you don't need to admit you were wrong for you to be wrong.
Other countries considering a bad idea doesn’t make it a good idea.
"Conscription is always a bad idea" is an objectively incorrect sentiment.
It's certainly a bad idea to rely on conscripts to make up the bulk of your fighting force. It's not a totally bad idea to have a population of fighting age citizens have had some basic military training and know which way to hold a gun. Countries like Finland or Switzerland have a more realistic view of what they may need to do if things ever got bad on their eastern front.
For the UK we'd have probably resorted to our nuclear deterrent before we consider putting conscripts on the front line.
In a war, the bulk of Finland's force will be made up of conscripts. Or more accurately, people who were conscripts.
The career military men will be the officers. If you look at their officer to non officer ratio in peacetime it will be absolutely bananas compared to the UK's. Because if they do get invaded by Russia, they'll immediately call up their reserves (which due to conscription is their entire eligible population) and the ratios will make more sense.
The military part of the proposed new national service is going to be optional however, those “conscripted” can choose a civilian volunteering path instead. So I’m not sure how this scheme would help with the threat of future conflict when nobody chooses the military option.
It’s a ridiculous gimmick to distract from the Tories failures in areas people do care about.
You think NATO v Russia is going to require conscription?
Or, sorry, let me rephrase that. You think Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, UK, and USA v Russia is going to require conscription?
Or, sorry, let me rephrase that. You think 966 million people v 145 million people is going to require conscription?
Or, sorry, let me rephrase that. You think a country that has been at war with its small neighbour for 10 years and is struggling v the largest military alliance in the world with the largest economies in the world would require conscription?
I've been a bit of a dick here to get my point across but making excuses for the tories bringing back conscription is also a bit dickish.
If you want to sign up, go for it. If there comes a point where it's required, I'm a relatively young fit man so would consider signing up too. But only when there's a need for it. There is no need yet.
Plus, if we're going for WW3, we're all gonna die in the nuclear blasts before we even get a chance to put boots on the ground anyway.
Yes you certainly have.
For clarity, I have not stated any excuse whatsoever, certainly not for Tories, but rather a reflection on where we are at present, where we could possibly be in the future and what has happened previously.
Tbh as much as this annoys me, if it became mandatory I wouldn't really resist it. Because I can see the necessity of it, and it could easily do me some good.
You should reconsider resisting
Only 5 between 1995 and 2024? That's less than schools, lol
I quite often think about Cameron’s ‘Big Society’, and how the continual underfunding of public services over the past 14 years has led us to a place where we’re essentially there anyway.
Rishi really doesn't want people voting Tory, does he?
Worse. He is using people who would be very unlikely to vote tory. The youth.
As slaves to convince old folks who have lost faith to vote tory.
Just like he is fucking the disabled its another culture war attacking those who refuse to support him.
They know they're doomed and just appealing to the faithful.
One step closer to bringing back Victorian workhouses
We funked up the NHS Policing and local services. By cutting funding to the bone. While refusing to invest.
But thats OK. We will use 25 days of teenage slavery to fix a bit of it.
Or you can learn to kill people ready for our next oil war.
Of course we will concentrate on selling how beneficial it is to the youth. While helpfully forgetting to mention. You can all already choose to do this shit. All we are adding is a mandatory requirement. So slavery to achive our own goals. And make some old folks vote for us.
Basically another culture war using folks who won't vote tory to convince folks with nothing to lose to vote tory.
Ah yes, that will make new Torys. Boot camp. Break their will to make them into good/conservative citizens. Don't see that working.... though I can see old voters (who didn't actually do it either) might think that.
Fucking prick rishi can go fuck a barbed rusty pipe. How about.you do.some fucking real work you self centred fucking muppet
Good luck Rish with trying this with Born Iron. IRA haven't gone away mate.