this post was submitted on 08 Apr 2024
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Solarpunk

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Listening to a recent episode of the Solarpunk Presents podcast reminded me the importance of consistently calling out cryptocurrency as a wasteful scam. The podcast hosts fail to do that, and because bad actors will continue to try to push crypto, we must condemn it with equal persistence.

Solarpunks must be skeptical of anyone saying it’s important to buy something, like a Tesla, or buy in, with cryptocurrency. Capitalists want nothing more than to co-opt radical movements, neutralizing them, to sell products.

People shilling crypto will tell you it decentralizes power. So that’s a lie, but solarpunks who believe it may be fooled into investing in this Ponzi scheme that burns more energy than some countries. Crypto will centralize power in billionaires, increasing their wealth and decreasing their accountability. That’s why Space Karen Elon Musk pushes crypto. The freer the market, the faster it devolves to monopoly. Rather than decentralizing anything, crypto would steer us toward a Bladerunner dystopia with its all-powerful Tyrell corporation.

Promoting crypto on a solarpunk podcast would be unforgivable. That’s not quite what happens on S5E1 “Let’s Talk Tech.” The hosts seem to understand crypto has no part in a solarpunk future or its prefigurative present. But they don’t come out and say that, adopting a tone of impartiality. At best, I would call this disingenuous. And it reeks of the both-sides-ism that corporate media used to paralyze climate action discourse for decades.

Crypto is not “appropriate tech,” and discussing it without any clarity is inappropriate.

Update for episode 5.3: In a case of hyper hypocrisy, they caution against accepting superficial solutions---things that appear utopian but really reinforce inequality and accelerate the climate crisis---while doing exactly that by talking up cryptocurrency.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

Cryptocurrency is the online equivalent of the neo-Nazi bar.

You know how the story goes, with the bartender who tells the customer "you have to throw out neo-Nazis as soon as you see the uniforms or the tattoos, no matter how polite and well-behaved they are. Because if you let Nazis stay and get comfortable they'll invite their friends, and word gets around that Nazis can drink comfortably at your bar, and customers who don't want to drink with Nazis leave, and suddenly you have a Nazi bar". You all remember that story?

Well, cryptocurrency in online spaces - especially futurist spaces and technological spaces - it's a lot like that. Cryptocurrency supporters are constantly looking for opportunities to promote cryptocurrency. And they obviously see a movement like solarpunk, which talks a lot about decentralization, and mistrusts the global financial system, and so on, as fertile ground for shilling cryptocurrency.

And if you let cryptocurrency supporters hang out and talk about how awesome cryptocurrency is, they will inevitably start shilling their particular flavor of cryptocurrency. And that's inevitably a capitalist scam and will inevitably harm anyone stupid enough to fall for it.

And the problem is not just that cryptocurrency is a capitalist scam. It's that, if you don't shut down cryptocurrency talk aggressively, you get more cryptocurrency supporters. Because the crypto bros see that cryptocurrency discussion is allowed, and they join in, and they invite their friends, and they start shilling their scams. And then you get crypto spammers and scam bots and the personal messages inviting you to elite investment opportunities and all the other scummy garbage that infests cryptocurrency websites. You either block cryptocurrency talk or you get a website full of crypto garbage.

In other words, cryptocurrency supporters need to be shut down as quickly and ruthlessly as any other bots and spammers. Because if you don't you inevitably get a website full of bots and spammers.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago

Because the crypto bros see that cryptocurrency discussion is allowed, and they join in, and they invite their friends, and they start shilling their scams. And then you get crypto spammers and scam bots and the personal messages inviting you to elite investment opportunities and all the other scummy garbage that infests cryptocurrency websites

At this point any cryptocurrency discussion space by necessity has strict policies against promotion, people who like to talk about cryptocurrency have realized it's generally rude and unwelcome to shill their bags outside of designated areas, and crypto scam bots don't limit themselves to only those spaces. Not every group of people you don't like is the equivalent of Nazis.

[–] TheDannysaur 6 points 8 months ago

Yeah this doesn't seem like a great take. I think there's severe selection bias.

I like a narrow band of crypto projects. I think the vast majority of things you hear about are scams. There's a ton of bad actors in the space. My advice to people is just to be careful, but I don't promote crypto because I don't promote things that you should have a good understanding of before investing in them. I'm not in the business of risking other people's money. I'll talk about the tech, but usually uninterested in a specific token.

I don't think your brand of zero tolerance will work on such a broad scale. I do think you should aggressively shut down any specifics about [token or project], but it's not inevitable that people go towards shilling.

I was one of the top users of a crypto subreddit, and it got over run in the way you are talking about. Shills and people talking about price, etc. I wanted to have real conversations about the tech and implications. I left because it wasn't what I wanted anymore.

There are people who can talk about those topics with the nuance required, but I agree many cannot.

Aggressive moderation? Good idea.

Zero tolerance policy? Bad idea.

Given the above you'll retreat to "so a little Nazi-ism is OK?" - and if you can't figure out the difference between the two and your view is that polarized, I don't think we'll really find any common ground here.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 8 months ago (11 children)

Honorable mention: the GNU Taler project

https://taler.net/en/index.html

Could be a better alternative to crypto.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

There is time and place for everything.

For starters, most modern cryptocurrencies (not Bitcoin, though) use Proof-of-Stake or a similar validation model, which pretty much solves the energy hogging problem. But the issue of laissez-faire capitalism persists, and crypto, in my opinion, is poorly equipped to deal with it - that is, assuming it wasn't meant as a perfect money model to force unregulated capitalism over everyone's throats.

And that is why it shouldn't suddenly become the main means for payments. But at the same time, that doesn't mean crypto doesn't have legitimate use cases. There are cases where anonymity, immutability and quick settlements matter, be it financially supporting protesters, moving money across borders, or, say, my use case of evading sanctions when trying to send money to my brother over the Russian border (outside of Russia, mind you).

[–] QuaternionsRock 9 points 8 months ago (4 children)

But the issue of laissez-faire capitalism persists, and crypto, in my opinion, is poorly equipped to deal with it

I mean, proof-of-stake protocols didn’t exist until 2012, and that was a hybrid protocol. Exclusively proof-of-stake cryptocurrencies weren’t available until long after that IIRC. There’s a lot we still don’t know about what blockchains are capable of, and it’s entirely possible that we figure out how to regulate them effectively.

But you point still stands;

And that is why it shouldn't suddenly become the main means for payments.

I agree wholeheartedly.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago

I call it ponzipunk

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago (10 children)

I just wish people who complained about it would spend at least 5 seconds trying to think about an alternative way to achieve p2p electronic cash transactions that lacks the problems they see in cryptocurrency. But nobody ever does. At the very least, don’t try to convince me that the problems that cryptocurrency purports to try and solve aren’t real problems.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (33 children)

So I’m not sure I see how crypto is preferable to the non-crypto banking system? I don’t support either of them but if you can show that it’s better, then maybe it has some uses temporarily until we find a better solution.

It’s going to have to be a lot better in other ways to get over the issues around scams, volatility, and energy use though.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 8 months ago (8 children)

Gnu Taler is doing this. No new currency, no mining, and no fraud. https://taler.net/en/index.html

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago

Okay but who gets left to hold the bag? What kind of hyper-volatile get-rich-quick scheme is this anyway?? /s

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago (9 children)

I don't see where this post did that, though? It criticises crypto for failing to solve the problems it claims to solve and for adding additional problems on top, not for trying to address things that aren't problems

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[–] mojofrododojo 12 points 8 months ago

Valid points all.

if you'd like a fantastic example of how Crypto is going to fuck up power supplies, just look at Texas - they can't keep their statewide grid running, shit on their renewable strengths constantly, and cut deals with cryptochuds so they're PAID to stop mining. SO FUCKED-UP.

https://www.tpr.org/technology-entrepreneurship/2023-09-06/texas-paid-a-bitcoin-miner-more-than-30-million-to-power-down-during-heat-wave

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

Thanks for emphasizing this. I was a bit disappointed in that episode. I don't remember any mention of decentralization which is integral to solarpunk. One of the hosts seemed to just respond to the other with a lot of whataboutism and negativity that just revealed a lack of understanding of solarpunk's relationship to technology. For example, promoting electric cars instead of public transportation and reducing the amount of cars on the rode. Maybe that was the both-sides-ism to create discussion but it seemed like a missed opportunity to really dive into solarpunk technology. Maybe someone from this community could reach out about our approach to technology. They seem like they'd be open to hearing different viewpoints from the solarpunk community.

[–] Olhonestjim 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yeah, I've worked on a wind farm that powered a Bitcoin mine built right next door, and another one that powered an oil refinery. Both felt pretty messed up.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

I'm an anarcho-communist, so the future I would like has no money in it, virtual or otherwise, but we aren't there yet, and as long as we live under capitalism, I see no issue with making use of tools there to create parallel systems to those of the existing institution, to not only undermine them, but create a secondary system independent of the state to rely on (aka dual power).

It should be expected that capitalists would co-opt these tools, but that doesn't make our use of them less valid (or theirs desirable).

Them turning it in to an investment doesn't mean you do - if you're not buying (or mining) it to accumulate it, all it is is a token that allows you (if done correctly) to move money privately and securely, without capitalists knowing who is involved nor taking a cut or involving the authorities. I'm sure you can think for yourself of reasons why this would be beneficial for anarchists and other radical and revolutionary groups and individuals around the world, and the networks they create.

I don't know the podcast you've mentioned, but I agree that marketing crypto for profit definitely isn't punk in any way shape or form, but it's the marketing for profit part you should be taking issue with, not the tool they happen to be using to make the profit with (AI being a perfect example of another tool that can be used to either free or enslave us, dependent on who is in control, not on the tool itself).

Edit just to be clear: crypto is a big vague term that covers all manor of sins, I'm not an advocate for all or even most of it, but again - used correctly, it can be a really useful tool to have at our disposal.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

“… it’s not secure, it’s not safe, it’s not reliable, it’s not trustworthy, it’s not even decentralized, it’s not anonymous, it’s helping destroy the planet. I haven’t found one positive use. For blockchain, it was nothing that couldn’t be done better without it.”

—Bruce Schneier, Bruce Schneier on the Crypto/Blockchain Disaster

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Them turning it in to an investment doesn’t mean you do - if you’re not buying (or mining) it to accumulate it, all it is is a token that allows you (if done correctly) to move money privately and securely, without capitalists knowing who is involved nor taking a cut or involving the authorities.

By participating in the market you provide liquidity to it, and that's the most important thing the ponzi scheme needs as it perpetuates the illusion of others that their coins are actually worth something. Sure, there are rare situations where someone would have a use for crypto, like fleeing an authoritarian state or so, but in the end any kind of interaction with these systems is like frequenting a business where you know it is used as a front for money-laundering by criminal enterprises.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (10 children)

but in the end any kind of interaction with these systems is like frequenting a business where you know it is used as a front for money-laundering by criminal enterprises.

So most large corporations and banks then..

Look, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, I made it very clear I don't support holding on to any crypto, just using it to circumvent oppressive systems, focusing on rejecting a tool (and one that can be specifically extremely useful in enabling revolutionary movements) because you don't like how others use it, instead of a system where any and all consumptions involves multiple levels of unethical practices, seems like completely missing the point to me. ¯\(ツ)

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