this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2023

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Why you should be a socialist in 2024 (www.youtube.com)

submitted 6 months ago by rockSlayer to c/leftism

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[+] Alteon -22 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (10 children)

As an extremely left-leaning Democrat, no. I'm totally happy with socialized Democracy and providing more socialized benefits, but I refuse to associate with actual socialists. For one, they commonly have a "my way or the highway" approach to everything - your way is wrong, there's is right, and if you don't like that, you must be a cracker Imperialist that likes all of the evils that Democracy has provided...oh, and yeah, they have no problem with using racial slurs against white people, as they believe you LITERALLY can't be racist to white people.

As someone that was interested in exploring more of socialism and the benefits it could provide I was met with the most hostile, rabid, insufferable people I've ever met. Fuck no, I'm not going to become a socialist.

[–] themurphy 15 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Seems like you have added alot of mening to the word "socialist" that it doesn't have.

[–] Alteon -3 points 6 months ago

Seems like I made a comment discussing how I dislike the followers of socialism rather than discussing the pros and cons of capitalism. Not sure what comment your responding to.

[–] Aleric 15 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I know a ton of socialists, being one myself, and can't think of a single one that matches any of that. None of it actually has anything to do with socialism.

It's a bizarre argument when you think about it critically. "I won't support a philosophy because I met some of its supporters and they were mean to me". I'm a scientist and my field is full of douchebag egomaniacs, yet the science is still valid. And hey, I'm nice!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

Likewise, progressive here, most of this is right wing straw man stuff

The only point op gets right is we tend to eat our own, purity tests and all that, though the right has a big tent filled with ideologically incompatible people, and that's the other extreme.

[–] Alteon 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Mate, I didn't say anything about socialism or it's policies though. I just said I don't want to interact with them. I'm all for stemming rampant capitalism and moving towards a more socialistic economic system, but it sucks that I can't talk with them. I've had numerous interactions with people over at some of the socialist Lemmy communities and I'm constantly put on blast for just trying to discuss what implementation of some policies would realistically look like only to be met with racially-charged insults and general douchebaggery. I'll admit that I'm jaded with the followers. It's like they have this, "your either with us or against us" approach, and me identifying as a Social Democrat in front of Socialists is like saying I worship the devil in front of a bunch of Puritans. Crikey, the responses I get.

[–] Aleric 6 points 6 months ago

Ahhh, I see it now! I misunderstood, thanks for the elaboration.

Yeah, that's shitty behavior. Most of the other socialists I know are... Physical acquaintances? In real life? I'm never sure how to phrase that. Anyhow, they're all very nice people. Some are a bit passionate but rarely mean and then only unintentionally.

People online, though, can be absolute wankers.

[–] rockSlayer 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

So, because people were mean to you you don't believe in economic democracy?

[–] Alteon 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

If everything you ever ate from a garden poisons you, would you still be eager to taste something new from it?

I've had enough interactions with socialists to understand the kind of it people it draws to it. I would love economic democracy and better socialized programs, but I'll explore it on my own. I have no desire to ask questions, or discuss anything with a socialist when I'm immediately put on blast because I don't pass their bullshit purity test. It's like either I'm 100% in support of all of their ideals, or I'm a jingoist, Imperialist bastard.

And instead of just, you know, asking questions or talking with me, your first response is " because people were mean to you, you don't believe in the right thing"? FFS, really? Wait to put words in my mouth, but hey, I guess I'm the bad guy here because I don't like you guys. Whatever.

I'm interested in the ideals, but goodness do I dislike the followers.

[–] rockSlayer 7 points 6 months ago

I was met with the most hostile, rabid, insufferable people I’ve ever met. Fuck no, I’m not going to become a socialist.

It certainly sounds like that's the reasoning behind why you don't want to be a socialist, but you're right. I should be asking questions instead of admonishing you for your reasoning. The comment came off as dismissive without watching the video and I responded in kind, which I shouldn't have done. Let's restart.

Being a socialist doesn't mean joining any groups or picking a particular leftist political ideology. Hell, you can avoid all other socialists if you think it's that bad. All it means to be a socialist is that you believe the means of production should be socially controlled. as opposed to capitalism where the means of production are privately controlled. Side note here, the means of production are basically the gears that spin the economy, and social control over those gears is where democracy comes into play.

I know that the purity testing and tearing each other down absolutely sucks, and it's all over the place online (and rarely in direct interactions). I'm sorry that that's been your sole experience, because there are a lot of us that want to educate and inform. I posted this video because I wanted to inform. Could you provide a specific example of something you asked about that received a poor response? For one, I want to genuinely answer the question to the best of my ability, but I also want to know where you're at with your education on these matters. Unfortunately there's a strong presence of "unless you already know everything, you're wrong" in online leftist spaces, and it's worth combating. It's why this community has the rules it does, especially the rule against sectarianism.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

As much as I can relate, I don't understand why you feel that being socialist requires you to hang out with socialists.

[–] Alteon 6 points 6 months ago

Because I really was looking forward to actually discussing what certain socialistic changes would entail and how they could be realistically implemented with the US within a logical timeframe, and every response was pretty much, "fuck you for wanting gradual change". No gents, I don't WANT gradual change, but I do expect something of this magnitude to take years to realistically get to, only to be told that I'm "an imperialist who is holding back change". After enough interactions, you get jaded. Doesn't matter who you are.

[–] hark 7 points 6 months ago

Funny hearing complaints of "my way or the highway" coming from someone labeling themselves after one of the two dominant political parties in the US who always say "we can't do this" or "we can't do that" when it comes to helping the average American (but will expedite the causes of their donors) and who control which candidate gets to be the presidential nominee.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Out of all the socialists and anarchists I know (in real life), I don’t know a single one that is like this. Some of my close friends are communists, and they are members of organizations that have more similar views to theirs. As an Anarchist, I’ve got different beliefs, especially in certain topics, but similar or identical ideas in other places. In the physical world, we usually brush those differences aside and work together in solidarity, and I’m welcome in all the protests I’ve been in. Even non socialists have been welcome in many protests organized by socialist orgs, such as those for solidarity with Palestine, or other anti-zionist protests, union solidarity, and anti-police protests.

Sure, some groups will be hostile and shitty, but that’s the case for all political views, it isn’t exclusive to socialists. I’ve been called all kinds of names by liberal democrats for not falling in line with them on multiple occasions. Politics online is often one of the most toxic cesspools, full of rabid people of all views. I wouldn’t judge a diverse group as a whole for the toxicity of a few.

[–] Eldritch 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Yes, small c communists, anarchists, and actual libertarians are all pretty reasonable and accepting. The only real complaint I could level against any of them is that many are so ideologically, dogmatic and inflexible. They cannot form coalitions to achieve anything. But they're consistent about it at least. Because it is baked in to many of the ideologies. It's still frustrating when they choose virtue signaling over accomplishments. Not that I mind the candidates many of them virtue signal to. My only gripe with many of them is that they stand no actual chance of getting in. And by wasting time virtue signaling we usually end up getting the worst of all possible choices. Get this is the left we're talking about. And by it's very nature. This sort of situation unfortunately isn't going to change. I'm reasonably okay with that as long as we don't go the big c Communist route at least.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

The inability to work things out and form coalitions is something thats pretty annoying. If you ever talk with anarchists and MLs, you will hear a lot of similar ideas, especially regarding what to do in the meantime, but they will still find things to bicker about in any electoral orgs. I get the desire for idealogical purity, and I see it in myself a lot. The dreams of an anarchist are beautiful, but if you are unwilling to deviate even the smallest amount from the direct path you see that leads there, you’ll fail to see the other slightly longer, twisty paths that lead to the end goal. Having a pure ideology is admirable if the idea is good, but it is useless if you can never realize it because you are too inflexible.

Personally, I’ve kinda given up on electoral orgs, so I’ll do my best to do direct action that genuinely helps people in the meantime. One man cannot start and sustain a revolution in the neoliberal hell hole I live in. I plan on moving soon, and when I finally do, I’ll join up with the local direct action orgs such as Food Not Bombs, and other more regional orgs, such as a few that focus on providing heat to the unhoused.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago

Found the cracker imperialist lmfao

[–] Eldritch 1 points 6 months ago

There are certain groups highly demonized by western nations. And far too over represented in the left. Simply because the overthrew a number of states approaching 100 years ago. And then proceeded to exterminate those that disagreed. Groups that still hypocritically criticize the west while hypocritically defending China, Russia, and north Korea for the same things. Groups like the ones that made this video.

That said, plenty of us on the left don't like them and can be rather chill. I'm not sure where, or if here even would be a good place to find them. But check out social libertarians, small c communists and anarchists etc. They along with social Dems all can make a pretty decent stew. There's still a lot of debate about peripheral more purist ideological things. But there's a large consensus.

Don't let ML represent or color your views of the left. They're barely nominally left to begin with. As someone leaning more social libertarian myself. I doubt I'm the only one called fascist by authoritarian defending ML. They give a lot of us a bad look.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 months ago

too bad that isnt happening in practice, or id be inclined to agree