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His slave, Sally, also almost freed herself in France and he convinced her not to (I think she was 16 or 17 by then?). The relationship couldnt have been consensual not only because she (& her whole family) was literally owned by him, but also because she was significantly younger/a minor. He kept his own children with her enslaved during his life. That he did this for political reasons isn't a good or acceptable look. Being a slave isn't a chill situation. Back then, we knew people killed themselves rather than be a slave. People knew then how harmful it was. Can't believe you're defending that relationship at any level.
I mean, it's not defendable on any level, except that the prevailing notion of the time was that black people were inferior to whites. Obviously that doesn't make it right, and by today's standards Thomas Jefferson is a monster.
I'm not trying to defend Jefferson as being a good person, but expound upon the (what I consider) false assertion that Jefferson had no issue with slavery whatsoever (from his private letters, he held views against slavery) and that he fucked a bunch of his slaves. I agree with the point of the individual above that the US was built by white men for white men. But, as I said earlier, if you're going to invoke history in your argument, it's best to do it with some level of accuracy.
Since I recently read that John B Bole's biography on Jefferson, I figured I'd chime in. The biography tries hard to put Jefferson in his time and place, establishes him as somewhat of a renaissance man (which, again, shouldn't be praised much due to his privilege and use of slave labor on his projects), and also highlights out his hypocrisy and disappointing refusal to support anti-slavery movement publicly.
You should double check usernames. I never stated those things.
I have been to Monticello. I know quite a bit about Jefferson myself. It would also behoove you to think about whether what you read contained any propaganda or attempts to sanitizes this country's history by making Jefferson appear better.
Back in even Columbus's times, there were people who staunchly disagreed with slavery. Which also existed for natives, including the Taino. Antonio de Montesinos and Bartolomé de las Casas (both wrote extensively about how bad slavery was) were alive 200 years before Jefferson and the latter was extremely well known especially in the academic circles Jefferson was in.
For perspective, 200 years ago would be when Mexico signed their constitution. 200 years is a long time ago in terms of collective consciousness. He knew it was wrong, he just benefitted from it so he was fine with it. Which is like, the entire basis for morals and ethics.
I didn't say you stated them. The person above did -- the person I originally responded to. When I say "If you're going to invoke history..." I mean, "If a person is going to invoke history." Maybe I should have been clearer there.
I personally don't believe Boles sanitized Jefferson's biography. Again, I think he did a good job of outlining his life without letting him off the hook. It's cool you've been to Monticello, and that you know about Jefferson. But if a person is looking for a fair depiction of Jefferson, is that really the place to go? I mean, certainly slaves were the ones who built up that place. I've never been, so I can't say for sure that they (the curators) don't condemn Jefferson in the way that you'd like, so doesn't that point kind of undermine your argument? Hey, I've never been, so I don't know. I'd guess Monticello is just as likely or more to have sanitized Jefferson's life than Boles' book.
And sure, there were people that opposed slavery centuries before Jefferson. But I'd wager to guess they were in the minority (ie, not the prevailing notion) considering there was an entire industry revolving around the slave trade during Jefferson's time, consisting of more than just two individuals.
Edit: Sorry, this doesnt really cover your entire comment because of your edits, but yeah I think the general jist is that we disagree about the level of Jefferson's "alrightness" with slavery. I mean, yeah he's totally a hypocrite, and you could argue it makes him worse that he acknowledge slavery was wrong, but still perpetuated it. I'm hesitant to do that, because of the time and place that he lived.
I'd very very VERY softly compare it to the fact that today, we know Nike has bad labor practices. Am I going to condemn everyone I know who wears a Nike product? Probably not.
Where we disagree is the "because of the time and place he lived, it's okay he had slaves." Also having separate private/public opinions makes him a coward, not a radical.
With your Nike analogy - 1) it's no where near the level of evil of slavery 2) I do condemn people who own shitty companies, eg blackrock 3) plenty of people during that time wore cotton and other products made with slave labor, and many today still do so. I'm not condemning the consumer. I'm condemning the owner, who had extreme power politically to end slavery. I'm condemning Jefferson, a coward rapist.
I mean, I never said it was okay he had slaves. It's obviously monstrous. And yes, it was cowardly not to be public with his private opinions on the matter. My whole point is Jefferson was not completely okay with slavery, although evidently he was okay enough to own slaves (depending on your viewpoint, that make your opinion of him either better or worse), and that he didn't fuck a bunch of his slaves.
Edit: And i suppose that contradicts my Nike comparison (hence why I emphasized "softly" there). Still, I'd say Jefferson was a product of his time and place, for the worse.
Edit2: actually no, it doesn't really. My point was that a person can be uncomfortable with a thing (Nike's labor practices) and still perpetuate it because of the just vast vast acceptance during the time
When you say "he was a product of his time and place," you are saying it's okay he had slaves because of the time/place he was in. FYI. Maybe you're genuinely unaware that's a dog whistle for excusing racism?
I'm unaware of anything significant Nike has done controversy-wise. So I will use Johnson&Johnson as an example instead, and their practice of having asbestos in their baby powder. If you are the owner of J&J, and you knowingly sold a product to babies with asbestos in it, but privately you think that's a bad thing to do, but publicly you did it because all the other businesses sell shitty products - should you not be jailed? If you are in charge of something, does that not indicate MORE responsibility?
Your analogy sucks because you are ignoring the power Jefferson had.
Jefferson was a founding father. Of our laws. He wasn't some no name consumer or worker. He was the equivalent (in terms of power) of a business owner. He is 100% responsible for his actions which affected millions.
I didn't think about it as a dog whistle, but I'm sure it is. That is me being ignorant. I'm not trying to use it in that fashion. It's not right he owned slaves. Once again, my main point is that he was not completely okay with slavery, as the original person I responded to was asserting.
You're getting into his role in drafting laws, which I havent commented on because I simply don't know, off the top of my head, what is attributed to him besides much of the original Constitution. I can only guess in regards to that, and I would guess that, being a white man, he considered and heavily favored the interests of other white men in the drafting of laws, and is responsible for much of the inequity we still see today.
By the way, Nike has been accused of utilizing forced labor in the past.