this post was submitted on 03 May 2024
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After how many “oopsies” (since this is not deliberate according to you) would it be okay to start calling a spade a spade?
It's a tiny land area with millions of people in there. You don't have urban warfare in a place like that without oopsies. This is what war looks like.
Let's also keep in mind that Hamas is shooting unguided rockets towards Israel and has been for years. They know very well that they're not going to hit any military targets that way but that's okay because it's not their intention either. I just find it curious how the people criticizing Israel for civilian casualties seem to turn a blind eye when Hamas does the same thing.
That in no way justifies what Israel is doing here but rather highlights for why I'm not rooting for either side here.
No one is rooting for Hamas.
Talking about them shooting unguided rockets, but not about the “iron dome” protecting Israel seems disingenuous to me, especially as a comment to this specific article.
The proportion of the attack is not the same. The technology and money behind Israels “retaliation” are widely different than what was used by Hamas terrorists.
One can condemn Israel for their actions without being on the side of, or justifying what Hamas has done. One does not need to justify condemning the actions of a genocidal government.
I do not think you are arguing in bad faith, but you are getting close to “whataboutism”.
Well it kind of is whataboutism. There are very few things in this conflict that you can criticize one side for doing that the other side isn't guilty of aswell. That's why I really struggle to understand people that are picking sides here. From my point of view it's a complete mess and the more I study it the more confusing it gets.
Hmmm, one side killed 35K, many of which children, the other less than 1K.
One side destroyed 60% of the civilian buildings, the other not.
One of the sides had destroyed and left non-functional a big part of the hospitals there, the other not.
One of the sides caused a widespread famine and managed to kill hundreds of aid workers and journalists and the other not.
Shall I continue, because I can. And I am not saying that Hamas aren't culpable, but with all due respect Israel did everything possible to radicalize Palestinians and to push them to the very corner.
Shall I also remind you that 85% of Palestinians are expelled from their homes, and they are living in makeshift tents in unsanitary conditions. And the majority of those have nothing to do with Hamas or any other military formation and those people are also suffering immensely.
How do you explain the disparity between those numbers? Are the Israeli numbers bigger because Hamas is morally against attacking civilians or is there some other possible explanations for it? Such as the lack of recources to do so? If Israel wants a genocide then why don't they just get over with it? They could finish it up in a weeked. They have the recources.
Could the high numbers be explained atleast in part by the fact that Hamas uses it's civilian population as human shields while they themselves hide in the tunnels? Tunnels built with the money from international organizations intented to feed their population. Money they spent building rockets to fire at the Israeli civilian population while their own lives in poverty. Ones that they shoot from next to the refugee tents to deter airstrikes because they know that unlike themselves, Israel is actually deterred (to one degree or another) by it.
Hamas isn't worried about their civilian population dying. They believe that being martyred lands you into heaven. It's a non-issue for them. Quite the opposite actually. Israel killing 11 children is not only not an issue but also great PR for them to feed the rage against Israel and the Jews. What does Israel benefit from it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
You know every single nation being treated the way Palestinians are historically treated would revolt. Did you know that the Israelian state exists today also thanks to terrorist acts that Jews did back in the days against the British mandate. And their back then military terrorist faction became the foundation of the present IDF?
You know history is written by the victors and the terrorist designation is done by the strong party. I am in no way excusing terrorism, just simply pointing you to some historical facts.
Do you also know why tunnels exist in Gaza, they were built because the state of Israel has always stifled their economy and prevented their basic human rights of free movement. Shall we also talk about the numerous illegal settlements, the various checkpoints and high walls and how Israel was treating Palestinians before the war? Or the fact that they are able to detain Palestinians without any legal conviction, or the fact that they are tried against military courts and served much harsher sentences.
Hell their elite is even calling them human animals and calling openly for their extermination.
I call the disparity of the casualties with the simple disregard of Israelis about human lives. Didn't the IDF kill 3 of their own, who were waiving white flags and were half naked? Or what about the aid workers? So please don't tell me that Israel is the good guy here, because THEY ARE NOT.
If you put a dog in the corner and kick with a stick, no matter how good natured this dog is, it will eventually bite you. So please don't act surprised when this dog finally bites you.
And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to achieve a long lasting peace will be with Israel granting them civil rights and giving a future of those people. And treating them with respect.
..which nicely leads us back to my original point:
That's why I'm not supporting either side. I'm not as pro-Israel as I might seem. The only reason I'm commenting in this thread is to push back on the claim that they're deliberately targeting children with no other intention than to kill Palestinians. That I do not buy. Most other criticizm towards Israel however is perfectly valid and I have no opposition to it.
My problem with Israel is that they are showing complete disregard for human lives and are deliberately using hunger as a war means. That in my eyes is inexcusable.
And mind you, they are supposed to adhere to international law, which they don't. The high civilian casualties count only comes to prove my statement. And this is not just now, even before the war, IDF soldiers were using pretext like throwing stones to kill some kids.
Just check Wikipedia or any non affiliated human rights NGO with Israel what they think about it.
And I challenge you to show me a single human rights watch group, again non affiliated with Israel that portrays a different picture from the one described above.
They're more than likely guilty of all that and more. I have no reason to defend them for what they're rightfully accused of.
However I'm still repeating what I just said; one reason for the high civilian casualties is the fact that Hamas deliberately uses their own population as human shields. It's widely known and well documented that they intentionally place military targets near hospitals, schools, mosques, refugee camps aswell as in the tunnels under civilian housing because they know that Israel is deterred by it. Just imagine what a Hamas fighter would do if IDF soldiers used Israeli civilians as human shields. Do you think they would care?
Look at the video I posted above. Why were they filming? Because they knew the airstire was coming. IDF warned them beforehand by "roof knocking" They want the civilians out of there first. Hamas wants the exact opposite. There's a ton of videos like that where the camera is perfectly pointed towards the building getting struck. Hamas does not warn beforehand. Hell, even Iran did that before their massive missile/drone strike.
The Israelis are no saints here but neither are Hamas nor the Palestinians who support them. If the roles were reversed and people saw what they would actually do if they could I think they would have quite a different opinion on them.
Hmmm, explain to me the attack on the international aid workers or the three hostages that were killed point blank. Or how many soldiers have been actually charged to excessive use of force, because it is kind of naïve to believe this hasn't happened. And yes, I have higher expectations from a state that pretends being democratic who adheres to international law. Why is Israel not allowing international press in Gaza? What are they trying to hide?
Or how do you explain the widespread famine, or the lack of functioning healthcare facilities, or the lack of medications in Gaza?
You cherry pick some facts and make some wild accusations, which are borderline to conspiracy theories. Apparently you are also biased, so stop pretending to be impartial to this question.
About your roof knocking, I believe this is only used when they are planning to use heavier airstrikes, and not using a precision guided missile from a drone. And guess what else the drone has, C A M E R A S. And someone should have checked the footage there before approving the airatrike. And apparently that someone was either too ignorant to care about the loss of human lives of those kids or were extremely negligent. And in my books this individual deserves to be persecuted, because if you don't do this you create a dangerous precedent. And please point me to a single article that shows me a single IDF soldier that got legally detained or persecuted in this war. This most moral army. You can't, right, then use your brain and make some simple connections and asks yourself some logical questions.
I shall once again quote myself back to you:
I don't understand why you want me to defend Israel for crimes they've clearly commited. It seems pretty obvious to me that you imagine to be arguing with someone that I'm not.
Yes I'm cherry picking individual examples. That's exactly the same thing you're doing. Again:
For everything you criticize Israel for I can come up with equally damning thing Hamas is doing. That's why I'm not supporting neither of these religious extremist groups.
Okay so that means Israel can kill 13,000 children? Thats okay? Do you know it's Israels fault Hamas exists? If Israel wasn't an apartheid state, October 7th wouldn't have happened.
I have no clue how you got that out of my message. Killing non-combatants is wrong no matter whose doing it. When done intentionally it's among the worst imaginable things for anyone to do.
Probably because Hamas hasn’t killed 30,000 civilians in less than a year. But I dunno, I’m not an expert.
I think Hamas is awful for killing 1200 and kidnapping hundreds
However, I can do math, and so I think even in this conflict alone Israel is approximately 30 TIMES WORSE. If I spend 300 words talking about how Israel is disgusting I can write "Hamas did horrendous crimes on October 7th and are murderers" and I'm responding completely in proportion
Sure. No doubt. Fuck Hamas with a rusty pipe.
But Fuck Netanyahu and his guys with rusty pipe 30x the diameter.
You're fine with Hamas deliberately targeting civilians because Israel has killed so many more of them? I don't see how that excuses it in any way. They were lobbing unguided rockets towards the Israeli population for years before this current war started. Killing civilians in unacceptable and they're both guilty of this. What do you think Hamas would do if they had the military capability of Israel? They're not killing less Israeli civilians for moral reasons..
When did I say that? All I said was that’s probably why people are spending more time criticizing Israel rather than Hamas.
You’re acting like evil is zero sum. Dude fuck Hamas. But also fuck Israel. Israel has done everything over the last several decades to make Palestinian life harder. That doesn’t make people less radical. And since October 7th they’ve killed 30x the civilians that Hamas killed. At least.
To quote Uncle Ben, “With great power comes great responsibility.”
Israel cannot use “Hamas would do it too if they could” as an excuse to slaughter civilians.
Netanyahu knows he has to go back to answering for his crimes of corruption if he stops stoking the fires of war with Hamas. Acting like he’s fighting a crusade to save Israel keeps him in power. Slaughtering innocents to radicalize survivors keeps him in power.